what determines a VA - Page 1

what criteria is used to determine a VA? I have noticed that in the 2004 Sieger Show in Karlsruhe there were 165 males of which 9 were awarded VA. There were 126 females of which 11 were awarded VA. In the Sieger Show in United States, Nevada there were 30 males of which 10 were awarded VA. There were 20 females of which 8 were awarded VA. Does this mean that there are less dogs but better quality in the United States than in Germany? These are some of the same SV judges that judge in Germany.Is it easier to VA in the United States or are the dogs judged to the same standard as in Germany? Percentage wise does this mean the United States now has better class of dog than Germany? And what of progeny? Their were only 4 Kennel Groups at the United Schutzhund Show. Only a few of the VA males even had offspring in the other classes. Does progeny even factor in to the judging of the VA dog presented in the United States Shows? If these statistics show that the quality of dogs is better in the United States than why would anyone feel the need to buy and ship a dog from Germany?

If DOG1 is around, could he put in his opinion? Or any SV judge? I wondered about the same many times over...

if the german judge does not make several USA dogs VA he will not be invited back. the standards are more strict in europe and the audience is much bigger . we are in it for fun they are in it for business, BIG BUSINESS. Peter Cadman www.germanshepherddog.tv

I’ll give this one a shot. It involves quite a few perspectives. First let’s identify the German Sieger Show as supreme. These animals are shown throughout the year, they and their offspring are judged across Germany each week. Even though a dog may be young and it’s offspring are not old enough to be in the sieger show. Doesn’t mean no one knows what the dogs are producing. This show is the world standard. It is what it is. Is it perfect? Nope. Each year good dogs make marginal placings and marginal dogs make good placings. If it were as easy as identifying which dog is best by it’s placing at the sieger show. This wouldn’t be much of a challenge would it? When it comes to VA in Germany. These are supposed to be the best of the best. Their heritage, genetics, production, promotion, breeder’s acceptance, show placings are all taken into account. Special importance is placed on the dogs genetic potential to produce exceptional dogs. Some do, some do not. Here’s my perspective between the two types of VA ratings. Those in Germany represent the lines that show the most promise from the dogs the judges think have the best potential to produce. Germany is small and if you want a VA dog. Chances are there is one not too far away. In the US, usually about 20 to 30 % of the class is awarded VA. These are the judges opinion of which animals are the best. Historically most rate top 100 V at the German sieger show. The US is a larger country geographically. Chances are even with 10 VA dogs, you will have to go a long way to breed to one. There are differences in quality between the two shows and the two ratings. In the end the judge tries to share his knowledge and offer his opinion on which dogs are most deserving. From there, it’s up to the breeders to agree or disagree with the selection.

Very diplomatically presented Dog 1. But when I look at the VA dogs from the past two United States Sieger Shows several of the imports never showed in Germany. TO quote Dog1 { The US is a larger country geographically. Chances are even with 10 VA dogs, you will have to go a long way to breed to one.} My question then is, "And why would I want to?" if these ratings are gifts or political favors? So is the VA awarded truly about the quality of the dog with all the considerations that are supposed to be factored in or the politics of the judge, breeder and owner? In the US, a larger country geographically, the VA dogs seem to be in "regional" clusters. I still think that the statistics show that either the Americans are being "patronized" and duped by the SV judges or VAs are a comodity bestowed upon the politically afluent or the quality of the GSD is better in the United States than Germany. The statistics are pretty clear. I can't be the only one to notice this pattern.

This is probably a topic that will need to be discussed back and forth a couple times. Too big to cover with a few paragraphs. When you consider the GSD breed world wide. Would it be fair if Germany and it's 9 or so dogs per year be the only VA in the world? As for the VA placings in countries outside Germany. Each Countries sieger show sets the stage for that countries best GSDs. The dogs do the protection routine and allow the breeders and participants to see what the dog has to offer. The dogs that pass are considered for the VA rating in that country. The idea being that those are the best available for breeding in that country. These ratings are not necessarily give aways. Many of the VA rated dogs were pretty close to VA in Germany or offer similar genetics as the best in Germany. I don't think anyone thinks the quality of the 10 VA dogs here in the US is across the board better than the VA from Germany. It's an apple to orange comparison. I believe the system is intact. The German VA dogs are listed VA. VA dogs from other countries are listed VA (with the country of VA listed) When considering a dog for breeding you have the option; seek your German VA, breed the best VA you have access to. Breed a dog you like and help make it the next VA dog. The third group is where the real interesting breeders are. By the time a dog is VA. He's almost a has been in these breeders eyes. The real breeders don't worry about ratings. They select the best up and coming young dogs and breed their best to them. This process produces the next generation of VA dogs through their breeding efforts.

In answer to Dog 1 " When you consider the GSD breed world wide. Would it be fair if Germany and it's 9 or so dogs per year be the only VA in the world?"... response.... No, but I would expect a criteria equal and fair to the quality of the dog per the rating given whether in Germany or United States. VA should be a revered rating and not to be compromised for popularity of judge, country, breeder or agent. The system may not be perfect but it should reflect a honest and fair rating from the SV judge with an expert opinion of the BEST dogs taking into consideration pedigree, progeny and performance. The rest is just nonsense and should be stopped!!!

Spaetzle, So now it's your turn. What do you feel is nonsense and should be stopped? Why in your opinion is a VA rating in any other country not equal to the criteria for VA?

It would be far better for the breed and an honest and accurate placing, if the judges officiating at the USCA and WDA Sieger would apply the same standards for awarding VA's in Germany. They don't! By continuing the practice of lowering the bar, it cheapened the VA rating to the point whereby one must ask, "What country did the dog earn the VA?" Where did the dog place at the German Sieger Show? "Who was the judge, who bestowed the VA? What critiques and placing has the dog earned in competiton in Europe?

OK Joanna, Be specific, what standards are applied at the German sieger show that are not applied at a US show? These questions will always be and should be asked. What country did the dog earn the VA?" Where did the dog place at the German Sieger Show? "Who was the judge, who bestowed the VA? What critiques and placing has the dog earned in competiton in Europe?