Studding my German Sherperd - Page 4

Pioneer of the Nile is a proven stud horse based on his offspring even though he did not win any races that were considered career makers. American Pharoah won the triple crown and the Breeders Cup but is NOT a proven stud as he has never sired an offspring of note thus far. Pioneer of the Nile at 9 years and sire of Triple Crown winner American Pharoah will demand and receive higher stud fees than American Pharoah ... the smart money is on Pioneer of the Nile as a stud horse for American thoroughbreds.

The take home message is dogs that win world titles are not proven stud dogs until they produce several offspring that perform for their chosen field. This performance of this generation does not predict the performance of the next generation with any certainty from stud dogs. Grim z PS was a one off son from a not so famous sire or dam but went on to be the most important stud dog in Czech breeding lines for the last 30 years.  The breeder's skill usually trumps the importance of breedings based on titles and shiney trophies.

http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/dog.html?id=437282-grim-z-pohranicni-straze-cs

Many times the mass breeding to a new " world Champion male " as we see in the dog world does not produce the desired result but to some degree can become a self fulfilling prophecy as a single "famous dog" is bred to entirely too many great females which reduces the possibility for other more productive breeding combinations.   The dam contributes 60% or more to the performance of her puppies so it would be better to look to the maternal lines for the next "top dog" in any sport. 

You're choosing to ignore the fact that Pioneer of the Nile won one of the triple crown races...he wouldn't have been bred to or possibly as much if he didn't win that race. So yes, you don't have to be a world champion, but you still have to prove the ability out on the field. Without that win he probably wouldn't have had the same breeding opportunities he got and therefore decrease the chance that he would have successful progeny.

Success on a trial field, especially at higher levels, just increases visibility. Most breeders that know what they're doing aren't breeding to a dog just because they win. They notice the dog because he wins, then they do more research as to what else that dog shows, what he's produced (if anything), and what else is in the pedigree.

Just as an example, the last two "major" GSD stud dogs in the United States have not been world, national, or even regional champions. They were dogs that showed well, accomplished titles, and proved themselves by producing dogs that work. I would consider one of those dogs a much better producer as more dogs related to him have gone on to higher levels where as the other dog has really only produced club level dogs.

Of course this is also just part of the equation and simple understanding of statistics will allow you to draw the conclusion that the more puppies a dog produces the larger the chance one of them will make it to a higher level. It also means that highly skilled handlers/trainers will have to notice and inquire about breedings out of that dog.

Pioneer of the Nile never won a triple crown race .. 2nd at the Kentucky Derby was his best finish. Pioneer of the Nile is a much better stud horse than race horse now producing into his third generation with many top horses. The point I made was that performance in a contest or game does not predict a stud dog's performance as a stud. The famous stud dog Pike von Schafbachmule finished 87 at the 1997 BSP (his only appearance) and was rated G with a combined 262 score and an 82 in protection .. however he did make a 98 in tracking

http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/dog.html?id=19532-pike-von-der-schafbachmuhle

The winner of the BSP in 1997 was a complete bust as a stud dog and the #4 dog was Nick vom Heiligenbosh  ... environment, luck and politics plays a larger role than genetics

 

http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/dog.html?id=443-nick-vom-heiligenbosch

Bubba, you really don´t get it. This is Pike´s trial history: http://www.schaeferhunden.eu/winsis_x/winsisshowdog.php?bb=&id=1873570&tp=4

You don´t need to participate on the BSP to proof working ability, 4 times "Regionals", once "Nationals" is good enough...( without all the "qualifying trials" every year, and without all the training sessions in different clubs ). You don´t need to win, you ONLY need to show WORKING ABILITY, HARDNESS, DRIVE, AND TEMPERAMENT on a higher level - and the breeders will use the dog. People over here don´t tend to use the dog with the highest result, but the dog with the best performance - that´s a main difference. For breeding it doesn´t matter if you are the winner or not - the real proof already was made.

No real working line breeder is interested in the results, but only in the PERFORMANCE.

It´s about WORKING ABILITY and the VISIBLE PROOF of it, not about single ratings.

Are you really that naive that you think people won´t use a top working dog only because he screwed up the "sit" or "stay" performance?

One reason why it’s hard to compare GSD and horses is that one has a much longer stud life than the other. First of all, yes, the dogs and horses have to prove their working ability at some level. Not win, but they do have to do their job and at least be visible at some level. AP’s sire accomplished more than many horses do and therefore was given the opportunity to stud. Also, due to his success he was able to stud to more mares than an average horse that wouldn’t have gotten. So then you also have to consider that the majority of thoroughbred horses, especially with “major” studs, are probably going to fairly good handlers/trainers/jockeys and have higher chances of success…dogs, not so much. The majority of puppies out of even the biggest name studs are still going into pet home or into novice hands where they won’t reach high levels and prove “good working progeny.”

Now…the “stud life” is also shorter. A horse at that level has accomplished everything it can by 3-4 years old. A horse lives for 30 years. A horse can retire at 3, and still have 25 years of stud left. This means that even in the prime of that stallion’s life, 6-15, he’s got dozens if not hundreds of offspring that are competing and hopefully winning. They can go through plenty of progeny year after year that still benefits the sire. With dogs, this doesn’t work as well. A dog in his prime is 4-6 years old. So say they achieve high levels of success at 4, are bred to a lot at that point (while still competing) and they produce hundreds of puppies. It will still be 3-4 years after those initial breedings that the progeny will hopefully start achieving at high levels. By that time, the dog is 7 or 8 and almost too old to really breed to. This makes dogs much harder to breed to when you’re truly looking at the progeny they’ve produced. Usually, by the time progeny has accomplished something, that stud isn’t viable anymore.

Also, when I’m talking about achievements, I’m talking higher level. Regional, and probably national/international competition. Plenty of dogs out there can produce club level dogs or even K9s. That level is generally up to the dedication and skill of the handler. The higher levels, they require more exceptional dogs, so those are the dogs I’m talking about. Especially when we’re comparing them to horses that have ran in the triple crown races.

And in regards to the OP, the dog just needs to prove something before there should be requests or advertisements for stud. The dog hasn't achieved at the lowest levels, why would there be an expectation of breedings "just to prove the dog can produce?"

"American Pharoah won the triple crown and the Breeders Cup but is NOT a proven stud as he has never sired an offspring of note thus far. "

How shall a 3 years old horse that started its "stud career" in 2015 be a "proven stud" ???