Opinion on this breeding - Page 1

http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/breeding.result?father=723930&mother=1828233

Would like to know what you guys think of this breeding?

Well, speaking only for myself, I think, "Why is this breeding being done? For what, purpose, other than to produce puppies which will, in turn, generate money from their sale?

See no hip rating on the female, who is just 18 months of age at this time; the male, who does at least show a hip rating, is sired by a dog with no hip rating shown and whose parents show no hip ratings, and he was but 20 months old when bred to produce the male Andre.

Neither of the proposed parents appear to be titled in any working activity, not even a basic BH or CD noted.

So again, speaking only for myself, my opinion is "Gee, great, another breeding based on dogs three, four, five generations back, but nothing accomplished more recently, missing hip certifications, from a too-young for my tastes female and a male who's no-different-than 1000 other dogs with similar pedigrees behind them.  As the song goes, 'Hey, must be the money!'"

You did ask....

Your right I did ask, and I appreciate your opinion.
I realize the female is young. Her prelims were done, and look good (I realize she is young). She does work in both protection and nose work and excels at both.
Same as the sire.
This litter is being bred as a working litter.
Thanks for your insight.

When you say, "This litter is being bred as a working litter", exactly WHAT does that mean?  They've already got paying jobs lined up for them upon weaning? That their pedigree is generation upon generation of working bloodlines--which more correctly should be referred to as SPORT bloodlines, since very few of the dogs in this or any other 'working line' pedigree have ever actually been tested under the pressure of work that isn't following a predictable, rote pattern?  That everyone in your IPO or Schutzhund or PPD club says they want a puppy from this litter for their next competition dog?

Please understand that I'm not trying to be unkind, nor am I picking on you or these particular dogs.  I'm sure they are both very nice dogs, well-loved by their owners, excellent companions and family members who gather compliments wherever their owners take them.  It's just that I don't find anything outstanding enough about these two dogs, nor the majority of hundreds of other dogs which are being bred every day, to warrant them reproducing for any other reason than there is money to be had for what they produce.  Usually, the money to be had is far less than the owners of those dogs thinks they're going to get, and that's in part due to there being no shortage of similar puppies from other people who are also breeding their very nice, well-loved dogs with credentialed relatives in the third, fourth and fifth generations and beyond.

There's also no shortage of very nice ADULT GSDs dying on the regular in animal shelters, especially in the larger metropolitan areas, many who even have credentialed, sometimes even FAMOUS parents, because they proved to be more dog that the person who discarded them there had bargained for when they bought them as a cute, cuddly little puppy.  So maybe you can better understand why I am extraordinarily UNDERwhelmed at the prospect of yet another litter of GSD pups with no clear purpose being brought into the world.  If you want to hear that this planned mating is a good one, or at least that it's not a horrendous pairing, I'm sure there will be others who will be able to say that to you.

On the other end of the opinion chain. I rarely see a IPO 3 dog that impresses me. What do you want in a dog? Why do you want a dog? What will you do with this dog once you have it.  What is it about these two dogs that you like so much that you would want a dog out of them? 

You know what I did not ask for a lecture as to why I should NOT purchase from a breeder. I own a total of 5 dogs...4 of which are rescues and the 1 that was purchased was a working dog drop out. We live Alberta where there isn't a large supply of quality dogs of any kind. In my own opinion there have been some great dogs come out of not so great parents and vice-versa. Every breeder started somewhere, and I know that this particular person works all their dogs and yes they are still young. Titles take time, and in Alberta it is not so easy to walk out and title your dog whenever your dog is ready.
Secondly, good luck finding a purebred GSD in a shelter in Alberta. Seriously, not as easy as you like to think and if you find one, the rescue will not adopt to you if you own a smaller dog.
Could I buy a dog on-line from some fancy titled dogs in the states? Sure, but who knows what the heck I will actually get. At least I get to meet these dogs, see how they are raised and trained. See how they work. Know I have made the appropriate decision based on what is available to me.
I get what you are saying. However, I simply wanted to know if anyone had some insight on the history of these dogs. I thought I was doing the right thing, and educating myself on this particular breeding prior to making a decision. Now, I am not so sure I will ever ask for help again from complete strangers on the internet who have nothing useful to say. If I could delete this post I would, I don't want to waste anyone else's time.

To Paul. The dog will be trained in narcotic detection and personal protection. Main purpose is narcotic detection. I know both these dogs and seen them do nose work and they are both impressive being young still. They are both well balanced dogs in mind and drive. I have been looking for a pup for a long time now, and would not purchase from someone out to make money nor would I purchase a dog that I did not think was going to be able to work full time. All my dogs are our family and if they can not work or will not work they will always remain part of our family. So I can't simply be purchasing dogs just cause.
 

You asked...."Would like to know what you guys think of this breeding?......you were given an answer by Hexe of what they thought of this breeding, I don't know why you would be turned off by that answer other that it didn't fit with what you wanted to hear. When you ask a question expect to get answers that may not be what you want to hear. I'm also in Alberta and am familiar with Hollenhund Kennel, so I know the dogs also and I agree with the opinion that Hexe gave.

Never said you shouldn't purchase from a breeder.Just pointing out that there are already plenty of dogs that are now unwanted, but which started off life as being part of a litter 'bred for working' just because there were some working titles a few generations back, but in reality the parents were nothing special and didn't really warrant being bred in the first place.

I asked what was meant by the statement, 'the litter is being bred as a working litter."  That is an empty statement. You say you're seeking a narcotics detection and personal protection dog, yet neither of the parents of the litter in question is 'employed' in those capacities at the moment, are they?  It might be that they are showing the potential for that work, but right now that's all you're going on--that they are showing potential. Breedings shouldn't be done based on what a dog has the potential to do, but rather on what the dog has actually achieved in advance of any breedings. 

I also never said that titles were the be-all and end-all.  One of the most reliable producers of working dogs in Canada generally doesn't title her dogs in IPO, etc.--but she is a regular source of dogs for the RMCP [Carmspack].   Another Canadian breeder, Tehillah in BC, works their stock on sheep to proof their instincts & abilities. I'd have no reservations about a pup from a breeding done by either of those kennels. Titling a dog in one of the working arenas isn't easy in many places; that doesn't justify breeding dogs that are too young to have their hips certified, or are still works-in-progress when it comes to training in their intended disciplines. Even at a full two years of age, it is the needle-in-a-haystack dog that has proven itself to be worthy of breeding at that age.  Check in on those same dogs at 4 or 5 years old, and see how they've held up physically, and look at where their working ability is as a mature animal--then you've got all the data needed to decide if a given dog or bitch is breed-worthy. Not at 18-20-22-24 months of age.

I've got nothing against buying from a breeder, but to me, a breeder is someone who has a clear picture of what they are going to produce from a given litter because they are using dogs which have proven themselves both health-wise and in the work, whatever that work may be. This breeding does not appear to meet that criteria.

You asked for opinions on this particular pairing. Well, it's no different from any other pairing of a male and a female a few generations removed from any import that had third-party evaluation of working ability and an uninterrupted history of hip status behind it.

I do wish you good fortune with whatever pup you eventually choose, and hope your training skills are equal to the task you'll be setting before the pup, too, because all the potential in the world can be wasted in the hands of the wrong trainer/handler.

 

hexe - spot on!

I know these lines very well and have bred these lines for many years. From a genetic point of view, this is a breeding that will produce dogs that are not prey oriented. I would not look for a top sport dog out of this breeding. More balanced drives with some of the pups having more defense drive than prey. Overall, should have good nerve, and good fight drives, some pups may be good candidates for LE or PSA work. Some pups may require a more experienced handler/family, but probably not the majority. A concern might be hips and elbows somewhat, but not because of the parents,( because if the parents were both OFA excellent and normal elbows), I would still have a small concern genetically that there may be a tad too many of same type dogs that produced superior workers, but you had to be careful with H&E. Overall, this breeding has some good aspects and some concerns, as do most breedings I see....definitely a breeding for working homes, maybe not so much for novice owners. Just some thoughts without going into individual dogs.