Ring Sport - Page 3

Mose, Any good GSD can DO ringsport. If you want to try and compete at the higher levels then yes a smaller, lighter boned shepherd would be what you would look to get. Something from Belschik von Eicken-Bruche would be what I would look at. I'm sure some others could give you suggestions on lines that produce smaller drivey dogs. Yes you can cross train. I am a big fan of training in multiple venues. But if you want to compete at really high levels(nationals) you need to probably stick with one sport. When you are finished with that one- go play in another.

The term used for the person taking the bites from the dog in each sport is pretty telling, actually--in SchH, it's a 'helper'...but in Ring, KNPV and the like, that person is a decoy or agitator. It's fascinating to watch the decoy work at evading the dog, at *making* the dog miss the bite, in these other disciplines--you won't find them going out of their way to make the dog look good, because that's not their job.

The term used for the person taking the bites from the dog in each sport is pretty telling, actually--in SchH, it's a 'helper'...but in Ring, KNPV and the like, that person is a decoy or agitator. It's fascinating to watch the decoy work at evading the dog, at *making* the dog miss the bite, in these other disciplines--you won't find them going out of their way to make the dog look good, because that's not their job.

It is a shame that the over all thinking of the term helper in SchH is to help the dog pass the protection phase of a trial. It is not, the term helper is based on the fact that the decoy is helping the judge evaluate the dog, hence helper. The helpers job is to help the judge evaluate the dog and in doing so, the helper when doing his job correctly should be TESTING the dog and exposing weaknesses in the dog, NOT helping them pass the trial. Yes, the helper needs to present the bite for the dog, and give every dog an equal opportunity to bite the sleeve. The helper must also be safe and work according to the rules and he/she must be consistent with each dog. In KNPV the decoy must also allow the dog to bite, his job is not to esquive the dog. In French Ring that is the decoys job to make the dog miss the bite, that along with the agility is what makes French Ring unique. Each sport has it's thing that makes each one different from the other, not always better, just different. In France their are a number of GSD breeders that breed for dogs to compete in French Ring. In fact I know of a few Rotties that have titled to Ring 3 in France also. The Dutch Shepherd is a breed of it's own. It originated in Holland as a farm dog, much like other breeds did. All Dutchies are brindle in color. When you are talking about a none papered Dutchie you are more then likely talking about or seeing a Dutchie Malinois crosses. Doug

Doug, Dutch Shepherds are not a registered breed with AKC, So there for, you will have a no papered Dutch Shepherd. Does not mean it is a Dutchie Mal cross. As far as I know a Dutchie and a Malinois is one and the same dog. The only difference is the color. Along with that, there is terv's to and Groenendael, Laekenois. All are of the Belian Sheepdog.

The Dutch Shepherd is a Reg. breed in Holland and you can get papers on them, just not with the AKC. And they are NOT one in the same, they have a host of different traits between the two breeds, from size to overall structure, temperament, and primary working drives. Where you get the Mals and Dutchie are on in the same other then color is when you have a Mal/Dutchie cross. I have both, and I have imported a number of both (papered and mixes) for police dept's and their is a difference when you have a "pure bred" Dutchie versus a mix. Doug

Ok, I am willing to listen, I also have both. I have a Dutchie I just bought and I also have Mals. The Dutchie came from Holland. I do believe that they have alot in common also. Their temperment maybe different but I do not see that much of a difference in their size, shape of head and eyes and over all shructure. If you would please, you can e-mail me at mth4741138@aol.com and show me the complete differnce between the two. Thanks

Greatest GSD--If you have a Dutch Shepherd from Holland, with no papers, you have a MaliniosX. This is why you do not see a big difference in structure. Your dog is mostly Mal. What is a MaliniosX? In Holland they acknowlege and accept mixing different breeds produces excellent dogs.It is not a sin to crossbreed. Mals are the basis and they will breed other stuff into them. Only in America are we still niave to think that a dog from Europe, especially Holland, is "purebred" or that the papers match what is really behind the dog. "Purebred" DS(I would bet there is still Mal in them, and GSD for that matter) Are different than Mals. They generally have more bone,(GSD influence?)taller, not as totally crazy energy and drive, and seem to have an "off" switch. I describe the DS as a nice middle ground between the Mal and GSD. Crossbreeding produces great dogs. Bart Bellon won the Belgian Ring National Championship in 1992 with a dog named "Flip". Flip was a Malinios X GSD cross.

I'll try to answer some of your questions. 1. The Mal is popular for Ringsport because it is the dog that was bred in those countries (France and Belgium) to compete in that sport - because that was what they wanted to win in, they bred dogs to excel in that sport. Ringsport requires great prey drive, great quickness and agility. Dogs are therefore likely to be smaller, faster than most GSD's. 2. It's not as popular because it hasn't been in the US nearly as long, and probably because it's difficult... really, really difficult to do it well. One of the things I've seen is that training for the two sports requires different techniques and focus. If you start a Ring dog at a year old or 2 years old, you have certainly waited too long. There are Sch trainers who like to start dogs at that age. The other difference is simply in the number of bites the dog has to do to be "trained". Because of the technical issues of targeting and working the dog to beat the equives of the decoy, a FR dog needs a ton of bites to prepare for competition - whereas a Sch dog is likely getting fewer bites with an emphasis on the deep, calm bite (a real problem in the GSD world in my opinion). I do think that if we had more GSD's doing FR, you'd see smaller, quicker dogs with more up-front prey drive and aggression. You'd also see more trainers working with them, which would make them more competitive in FR. Look at http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/pedigree/127314.html to see a dog who was an excellent Ring dog. and go here to see a breeder who does very well in FR with GSD's www.bergerallemandhurlevent.com The issues of what Sch has become and the effect it is having on the breed (both working and show) is a topic for another discussion, but I really don't think it's good ...

I will enclose the link for the kennel that my Dutchie. If she is a cross between a Mal and a Dutchie, I do not know. She is a awesome puppy with alot of drive. There is paper work for her, but I know that I can not register her with akc. http://www.bloedlijnen.nl/