Ring Sport - Page 1

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by Mosemancr on 24 December 2006 - 00:12

Ive just found Ring Sport and so far it seems that the main breed of dog for this is the Belgian Malinois. What does the Malinois posess that the GSD doesnt to make that breed so popular in Ring Sport. Or, is it just that I still know very little of Ring Sport and have failed to see the that GSD is just as common as the Malinois. Also, why is it that Ring Sport isnt as big as Schutzhund? From what Ive seen its just like Schutzhund except with a near overdose on PCP (I dont know about PCP through personal use, only from watching COPS). Thanks!

Bob-O

by Bob-O on 24 December 2006 - 01:12

Ringsport is an excellent sport for true working dogs with high but controllable civil drive. The Malinois is an excellent dog for this sport, as the drive has not been bred out for the sake of show beauty. Not my favourite breed, but an excellent dog nevertheless. There are several GSD's who do this work as well, but as you have seen this is an area where the better Malinois are really in their element. Ringsport requires a different type of dog than the type normally used for Schutzhund sport because most Schutzhund dogs are trained to focus on prey objects, i.e., the bite sleeve, not the arm that is wearing it. While the forward agression of the Schutzhund sport dogs is nearly sufficient for ringsport, there is the need for extreme defensive fight drive for that most Schutzhund dogs are neither developed or trained. It's not that the GSD cannot do this work, it's just that ringsport is the home for the excellent Malinios and Rottweiller dogs that seem to have more of an innate skill at defensive agression versus just forward agression. Neat sport, I agree. Bob-O

KYLE

by KYLE on 24 December 2006 - 01:12

Ring is a great sport and there are a few GSD's participating in the sport. Ring was designed for the Mali. There isn't any tracking in Ring but I believe there is a scent discrimination test. Schutzhund was designed as a breed worthy suitability test FOR the GSD. There are several GSD's participating in KNPV and doing very well. KNPV and Ring are more intence when it comes to the protection phase. I also like the Ring object guard test. I saw a very intence object guard video where a child in a car seat was the object. Now thats personal protection! Kyle

by gsdlvr2 on 24 December 2006 - 01:12

Bob-O, does forward aggression =prey drive and defense=fight drive?or am I confused by your comment? and is biting the guy vs the sleeve on the guy=to defense in your comment?

by jdh on 24 December 2006 - 01:12

I know very little about Ring Sport, but what I HAVE seen was quite impressive. While I have never seen a GSD in Ring, I am told that there are people who do it. I suppose many of the harder, higher drive GSD's would be able to do well in it. Best Wishes, Jonah

Bob-O

by Bob-O on 24 December 2006 - 01:12

Gsdlvr2, the defensive fight drive is the willingness of a very hard dog to defend himself or his handler to his death, if it was inevitable. It is an outcome of forward agression, but much more imprinted on the dog. You may have seen the post today about agitation devices and agitation collars. These items are staples of building and reinforcing defensive fight drive. Forward agression is the type of behaviour observed when a very confident dog is confronted by a helper, or sent out for a bite. Just for the sake of clarity, rearward agression is the fight-or-flee response that we typically see in a dog that we would label a fear biter. Our Schutzhund dogs are trained to see prey as the sleeve that is worn on the helper's arm. The helper had better not be mistaken for the prey, or the dog will fail. But, these dogs must have some defensive fight drive, otherwise they would not protect their handler during certain parts of the protection phase. That is some of the reasoning why dogs with a strong civil drive don't do very well in Schutzhund sport, as they do not seem to be able to mentally diferentiate the sleeve from the man wearing it. And some of the reasoning why the dogs with high levels of civil drive do well in ringsport, or KNPV. I hope that this helps. Perhaps someone else can explain more and in a better way than me on this subject. Bob-O

by Klatolklin K9 on 24 December 2006 - 01:12

A defensive dog is not a good dog for high level French ringsport,IMO. The decoy in french ring will take points from a dog with high levels of defense. They will step on the dogs feet in the escort phase etc. The biggest thing they will do when they see a dog become defensive is more of whatever caused the dog to get defensive. When a dog shows defense the decoy just pushed a button and will keep pushing it until the dog is out of control to take the most points it can from the dog. In french ring the decoy is against the dog. The agility in French ringsport is on a different level than Schutzhund so it benefits the smaller dogs. Some large dogs can do it but many cannot. The ones that can do it put a lot more stress on their structure than the smaller dogs. Also points are taken from the dog every meter the decoy can escape from the dog. A smaller dog is typically faster and can get the bite faster which means less points taken off. Very high prey and very controlled fight drive is ideal for a french ring dog. If the dog does not want to fight the decoy will do things that the dog does not like. If the dog needs a lot of prey stimulation, the decoy will not give it to the dog. An example of this is in the object guard where the decoy will slowly walk in and try to make friends with the dog. If the dog needs a prey move to trigger the decoy will do just the opposite and slowly take the object and slowly walk away. If a dog is defensive and needs a threat to bite the decoy will walk by the object as though they are not paying attention to the dog or the object. Then as they walk by they will simply pick up the object and move on, often without tripping the dogs defense as the decoy never showed any aggression at all. A dog that wants to fight but is shown when to bite is ideal. This has been my experience anyway. Merry Christmas, Robin www.klatolklin.com

by gsdlvr2 on 24 December 2006 - 02:12

mose., sorry don't mean to turn your thread. Bob-O, thanks for the helpful info. help me just a wee bit more, so if a schutzhund dog bites the man its bad ,but its good if he is for ring sport or civil? So a very confident dog,will go with courage to the helper and bite her/him without hesitation or sleeve? and if he is a good dog ,also outs asap on command?

Bob-O

by Bob-O on 24 December 2006 - 03:12

Gsdlvr2, possibly is the answer, and not a good one at that. For example I co-own a dog, the V-3 Wino vom Zampano who is a pure West German show-line. The Wino has an extreme civil drive for a show-line type, and therefor has no Schutzhund title as before I purchased him he was handled poorly and failed his exam because he did out, but the helper was a bit naiive and slipped the sleeve. The result was a surprise re-attack and a lot of stitches in an exposed arm. Not a good show for Schutzhund. The Wino has a habit of spitting the sleeve and returning for a serious re-attack. He has done this twice with two (2) different helpers, both of who were informed to let his handler out the dog and not slip the sleeve. Both failed to comply with the request and were bitten. The second one was wearing a bite suit and took the bite to his stomach. No stitches, just a nasty bruise. Still not funny, but an example of a dog who saw the man, not the sleeve, as the prey item. Yet the first time that I handled him in some obedience work, he was "my boy" and did nothing but please me. He "switches on" when he perceives a threat and is a bit too hard for some people. But he also has the ability to "switch off" and I really like his character. Klatolklin K9, I think that you give more and excellent insight into some parts of ringwork and offer a more detailed explanation. Bob-O

by Get A Real Dog on 24 December 2006 - 03:12

This is a topic that can get confusing very quickly. First, there are several "ring sports" French Ring, Belgian Ring,Mondio Ring, American Street Ring, and some consider KNPV or PSA a "Ring Sport" In actuality while these sports and there excersises seem similar, they are in fact quite different as are the type of dog that excels in each individual sport. My introduction to bite work was French Ring(FR) and Malinios, hence the name Get A Real Dog. (It is a joke after all don't kill me guys! Ha, Ha. I do like a good German Shepherd) I will assume that the original poster is refering to FR. There are a mulitude of reasons why the Malinios is the dog of choice for almost every bitework dog sport besides Sch. I don't want to become the ememy of all the nice people on this board, so I will only offer opinion on the most obvious. They are just more physically capable of doing FR. FR has a hurdle jump, a long jump, and a palasiad that are very difficult. The dog has no way to "use" the object to be jumped like an A-Frame. Then you have what they call an "esquive", which means they do everything they can to make a dog miss the initial bite or any bite thereafter. The main focus of the bitework portion of FR is man against dog.The decoys only purpose is to expose the weakness in a dog or it's training and take points away from the dog. A FR decoy is given pretty much free reign to do what they want within the rules (and there are not many rules) The higher up you go; the rules often get "bent" to make it even more difficult. The decoys do everything they can to prevent the dog from biting. If a FR judge thinks a decoy could have run a dog or blown it of the bite, and didn't they get in big trouble. There is no sympathy when it comes to the bitework. If a decoy runs a dog, they run it off the field it's not pretty. Con't





 


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