Good news? SV soon to be splitted! - Page 6

On the first breed zuchtschau in this "new association" I am today already strained-probably go here only to dog to the start, which received an g-evaluation in the apron so far from the sports association, but to the 256.Mal the SchH3 put down have-having those main breed hauptzuchtschau of this association becomes then the high point of the yearly. hardy

I dont necissarily think this is a bad idea - if they could do it the same way they handle the warmblood horse registries (hanoverian, oldenburg, trakhener, etc....) which includes the animals being approved to breed within other breeds then it might have its merits...it would jut hae to be very selective in terms of structure AND working ability...only brining in those dogs that will really benefit the GSDs.

I have more experience with horses and warmbloods than I do with GSDs though...which is why this idea isnt as foreign to me I think.

~Cate

Someone here talked about hybridization and how it does not work. What does work is choosing a wild ancestor for which the animal is related and cross breeding back to the wild strain. It promotes vigor and since much of the same DNA is already in use the hybrids do not fizzle out.

GSD should not be crossed with Mals but with wolves in a closely monitored and controlled way. As far as I see this may be the only hope for the breed. Of course long stock coats would have to be accepted and the back would be straighter. Cross breeding with Mals is a bad idea. There is no dog smarted or has a higher prey drive than a wolf, its only been a hundred years since its blood entered the Shepherd, time for an infusion. Of course we have not got it right up to now, what makes us think we can do better?

As much bru-ha-ha and outcry has been raised about the concept of crossing the GSD with Mals, you'd think the 2nd Coming was upon us.  Whether you like it or not, Mal x GSD crosses are perhaps more common in real working dogs than we would hope.  In my own community, there is only 1 purebred GSD used in any police department.  The rest are Mali's or Mal x GSD crosses. 

Perhaps what Mr. Helmut was aspring towards was the provocative realization that the GSD breed (per SV standards) is becoming more and more disappointing to the needs of the true "working" dog aficianados.

I personally would rather own a cross bred GSD-Mal that  could perform useful service work, as opposed to a lofty purebred with a prestigious pedigress but no higher function than excellent side gait.

Yvette

 

The "Cross German Shepherd" or "Malherd" has been around for quite some time. These dogs are produced but I cannot easily determine whether they are used in any formal breeding programme. So, is it just a one (1) generation thing with each of them? I cannot say. So we (as far as I know) have no knowledge of what really happens with such a cross over several generations-i.e. how does this affect the overall health of the slightly-altered breed as far as genetic improvement?

As far as I understand the regulations; once a "Malherd" is produced it's progeny can again become German Shepherd Dogs once there has been three (3) successive generations of breeding back with German Shepherd Dogs. The German Shepherd Dog is a relatively new breed of dog anyway (approximately one-hundred twenty plus years in recognised existence) so one could argue "what is the big deal?"

I guess the "big deal" is certainly one that affects the conformation show-line moreso than any other "line". It is kind of a tired statement but one merely has to look at the evolution of the dog since its recognition as a separate breed to determine that there was a time when many specimens did very much resemble the Belgian Malinois.

Our dog of today is essentially a "manufactured" breed and not a true "natural" breed of canine, but that can be said for many purebred animals. I still think Dr. Raiser has his heart in the right place, but it would take much more than his antics to force a change such as this.

Regards,

Bob-O

 

Other than breeding to a dog which is not a german shpherd dog, SV does not put any restrictions on breeding a German Shepherd Dog.   The only restrictions in Germany are that the dogs being bred are breed surveyed.  They could be KKL2.  The ZW guidelines are for the benefit of the breed.  We have a large population of German Shepherd Dogs, a number of which possess the qualities we are discussing here.  The  German Shepherd Breed has always developed and maintained by good breeders and trainers, and SV or other local organizations have just provided by broad breeding guidelines.  A number of us on the board are breeders and it is our responsibility to put in the effort to make the breed better.  Health and longevity have to be two of the main factors when choosing breeding partners.  It would be nice if SV allows breedings through artificial insemination because this way you can store semen and can always go back to the dogs who produced the desired trait, especially since we can DNA our dogs fairly conveniently now.  Dr. Raiser has good ideas but a huge ego.  I can understand his desire to produce a good dog, but he has only bred less than 6 litters, and I don't know if he has kept track of the dogs he has bred.  If a breeder wants to improve certain traits in his progeny, he certainly can because there is still enough diversity in the breed.  I don't want Mr. Koermeister appointed by Dr. Raiser telling me how to breed my dogs when I am perfectly capable of making that decision on my own.  I also don't want Mr. Koermeister telling me what I should do with the puppies, which ones should I keep and which ones need to be destroyed because don't think for a second that all the dogs coming out of "recommended breedings" will be great.  It has taken us over a 100 years to get to this point, and yes it is not a perfect breed, and it is true that we are putting too much emphasis on gaiting at the cost of functionality, but at least we have the freedom to change and breed dogs which are healthier and live longer.  Let's make this a priority, and commit to it the next time we breed a litter.  I don't want to split SV.

 

Ajay Singh

www.ajaysingh.com

I do not agree with any other breed being crossed into the German shepherd at all !!!.  BUT............ its no secret that over the years the Mali has been slipped into certain working lines on a few occasions for the purpose of increasing trainability, speed, stamina, and toughness !, it can be clearly noticable in more than a few dogs today ! I'm sure you have all seen them for yourselves.

It will be a great shame if this practice continues !!!!!!.

just something to think about......

the registries for dutch and swedish warmblood, hanoverian, holsteiner, oldenburg, etc. all have open stud books; meaning that a stallion could be recommended for breeding in several different registries.  this type of breeding is done for the sole purpose of improving the breeds and this sort of breeding is well planned, not a happen-chance encounter.  i do see and understand the  objectives and benefits of such a breeding program. 

also, let us not forget who the forerunners of our gsds were.  the malinois and the tervueren played no small part in the development of the gsd.  i see no reason why the malinois could not be reintroduced.  3 generations of exclusive gsd breedings, then 1 outcross to malinois or dutch shepherd and repeat 3 generations of gsds.  some interesting things could also be accomplished with the hybrids.( with only certain characteristics being held back for future breedings.)

i realize this sort of thinking holds no promise for those who seek only a "finished" product.  the only folks who will be drawn to these theories are the ones who are intrigued by genetics and are in it for the long haul.  the folks who breed to winners and have a breeding program based on the current fashion could not even hope to make such a program work for them.

as i said, something to think about.......

pjp

I'm not so sure where the attraction to Malinois is coming from. Probably just "grass is greener on other side".  I like and respect Mals and might even have one in the future just for fun and diversity; but the GSD breed is fine and doesn't need to be "improved" by Mals or Dutchies. Most people on this board have multiple dogs anyway.

The problem in GSD genetics by the numbers is really the showlines. Having 80% of the dogs in the most popular dog breed in the world being so heavily, heavily line bred and dependent on the resources of just 2 dogs Canto-Quanto Weinerau is a recipe for disaster, and one doesn't  need a geneticist to know that. (The AKC show lines are beyond salvation, let's just call them a different breed) The working lines on the other hand come from a much broader genetic base and the fall of the Iron Curtain w/c opened up the DDR and Czech lines for access have made it even better. It's a problem of money and motivation. Right now, why would a showline breeder breed to a working line? There is no money or motivation to do so.

I suggest a very simple fix. There is nothing in the GSD standard that says that a red/black saddle pattern dog is the preferred color. Simply start putting sable, black and bicolor dogs in the VA category in the BSZS. I guarantee to you that in 3 generations - problem solved.

I recently visited the livingroom of an avid historian in Schutzhund who has taken a preference for malis.  The conversation drifted into why a preference for malis versus GSD's, and why he wouldn't compete with a GSD.  It wasn't long before pictures of trials involving GSD's doing far more demanding exercises than today were brought out, along with far higher jumps, vertical jumps, and participation in other sports in the past such as French Ring and Mondio.

It's one thing that a Mali can perform certain athletic feats that Shepherds cannot.  Owning 3 Shepherds I see his point to some extent.

It's another that in the past, the breed was able to do that given the condition of the breed at the time and is no longer thanks to the more recnt contributions of the SV and Showlines. 

I'm new to the sport, so seeing pictures was educational and made me understand why people like Helmut seem to be going the direction they're going...

If the roachback was able to perform as a real working dog nearly as well as a Mali, as I was shown they were once, more power.  That dog just won't hunt in certain sports apparently, most notably the higher levels of ring.

For those of us who own working lines, in my opinion, if we're to have a working dog, let the dog be bred to work...

Now if my friend would only show up to a competition with his Shepherd....:)