BSZS bitework helpers - Page 3

Iam not talking about personal style. Iam speaking of the specific rules that the helper is to be HIDDEN and only come out on the judge's signal. Not in plain view striking the blind with his stick. That has nothing to do with style or how I personally think/see things from the sideline. As far as confronting the judge himself... they are far too busy to listen to a complaint on show day. And it is also in the rules that the judges decision is always final. No arguements. So, what good would it have done? Do you really thing the judge would have stopped the work tests to call out the helper correct him on one person's complaint?!! The fact that no one comlained that I know of, said to me that no one really gave a rip whether the rules were being followed. Who knows, maybe next time I see something so blatent I will respectfully ask those in charge why... but at the Sieger show in Germany is not the time and place. Maybe the Germans seeing this now will take it in to account for next time. All of the helpers I saw were of good quality and I had no other complaints. But rules are rules whether the judge makes the helper comply or not. THey are made for good reasons. To not comply is to not test the dog fairly. Especially since, it was not consistant. We are not talking stick hits or driving the dog or any other personal style. Any dog that I bring to a show or trial.... I will be as sure as one can be that his/her bitework is the best that it can be. Debby

Debby, I am sorry but your initial post is very different from the tune you are singing now: [[...helpers giving special treatment to some dogs...]] which now turned into a single helper not working the dogs according to 'the rules'. There is quite a difference between both statements/observations, dont' you think? If a helper is not doing everything 110% to the rules but works well enough, surely a judge is not going to disrupt the flow of the BSZS for just that. Nor is it your place as a spectator to file a complaint. That is a priviledge left to the participants. You can however address a judge during the course of a brief discussion about what you saw and hope to get an answer. Again, a marked difference to a 'complaint'. I have spoken to many judges over the years and had rather intersting discussions with them. Far cry from being a complainer. I am interested in their point of view so that I may understand the process of judging better. During a large event like the BSZS, which is an organizational nightmare, small glitches are to be expected. If a helper is not quite up to par but makes up less than 10% of the whole, then apparently that was well within acceptable limits for that judge. A couple of years ago a friend of mine competed at an LGA trial. You have to compete and qualify for the LGA, cannot just show up. Its not easy making it to an LGA. Some of the competitors were scheduled to track in the morning, the rest in the after noon. Tracks for the afternoon group were layed before lunch. Then the skies opened up and flooded some of the fresh tracks. The rules say that every dog is entitled to be trialing under the same conditions as the others. Some participants of the afternoon group were faced with parts of the track 4 inches under water - clearly not similar conditions to the morning group, or even others that started in the afternoon but did not have 4 inches of water on their track. A complaint was made to the judge, who decided that no new tracks will be laid and the results of the dogs tracking in the afternoon were final. Several dogs failed. That was not quite according to the rules. Just the way the cookie crumbles sometimes. Learn to live with it. Rest assured that everyone going to the BSZS will also have their dogs bite work the best it can be. The best sometimes just is not good enough. It is clear that you have not participated at enough events to know that animals do not perform the same way all the time. Especially at large events where nervous owners influence the performance of their dogs greatly. At LGA, BSP, FCI and WUSV level where the cream of the crop competes there are numerous dogs every year that fail! Including protection. Does not make them a bad dog. They just had a bad day. Ever got stoppped for speeeing or another indiscretion while behind the wheel and only got a warning ticket instead of the full meal deal? Sure you have. Did you tell the officer then that you could not possibly accept that warning, because you clearly broke the 'rules' and really needed that regular ticket? Sure you did ;o). Part of sportmanship also includes a smile when someone else got handed the better cards!

gsdlvr2, i don't care what part of the protection sport you participate in. Even the police takes great care to teach their 'real' dogs control. Surely what you do is not above the police. Military dogs may be a different story, different situation. We do not live in a war zone. You are an ambassador for this breed. Not just your dog. Your dog is only an extension of you. Only does what you allow or encourage. When a helper addresses you during training, stops the agitation and takes the arm down, then that is your cue to be in 100% control of your dog. If you and the helper thinks it was his problem then both of you need to readdress what you are doing. I agree, if the helper just assumed that the dog was under control and did not keep an eye on the situation, then the consequence may be getting bit and he is responsible for his lack of attention to that particular situation. A helper should always have an eye on the dog, even if he thinks the dog is under control. Especially since we are talking about training where a dog is still learning what it needs to do and when. But for you to feel 'all proud'... sorry, I simply cannot share that sentiment. I find that a very dangerous and irresponsible attitude. Your helper was wearing a sleeve, not a suit. So what kind of 'civil' training where you doing? If the dog is supposed to work the man, the man wears a suit!

Yes, I can see how one could take the original post wrong. But that is how I ment it from the beginning. I have been in the show ring as well as working trials enough to know how things go. And have observed many more times to know also. One thing I do know is that my dog will bite no matter what. Well, maybe not if a lion jumped out of the bushes as he was about to bite... lol It may not be a good grip and it may slip on a bad day. But there is no way that he would be chased or fail to engauge the helper. Where I have found the most problems is in tracking. Any dog, no matter how well trained and how high ranking can have a bad day on the tracking field. Obedience can also be flat on a bad day. But a dog failing to engauge is either in severe pain or is not trained properly or does not have what it takes. The thing that I love about schutzhund trials is that the rules are followed much better than in the show venue. Daniela says: "Rest assured that everyone going to the BSZS will also have their dogs bite work the best it can be." If you really think this is true then things are worse than I had previously thought. I have excused some of the show dogs in my mind for their lack of intense training, being trained only to get by.(which I actually know to be true, but anyway...)But to go into the biggest show in the world and see such poor bite work overall, and to say that that is the best it can be, is very sad. Half of the dogs there are not just having a bad day. Heck in Germany they have shows all the time. For a dog not to be experienced in a show athmosphere is absurd. They also have practice sessions in the stadium for that very purpose. If the dog can not do the bitework it should not come. Especially to that show. I do know first hand that a few, one specificly, were confused on the field and headed for the camera man and then engauged at the last minute. Those type of things happen. Just not on such a grand scale as all of the dogs that failed. There were 47 dogs that were disqualified in the T1-4's! All of your explainations are good stories. I really feel for the tracking people/dogs! But, that is cercumstace and bad luck. Not blatently disreguarding the rules. I have also heard similar things with dust/sand. The conditions being so bad that the owners could only see half of their dog and the dogs faces and lower half of their bodies were white by the time they finished. Being handed a better deck of cards in not breaking rules. A better deck of cards can be shrugged off and walk away smiling. Rules are a different story. Debby

Dog 1, you are the one that fails to understand the issue. It was a person questioning the event and offering some questions/ choices as to why. You immediately try to suggest that you have some sort of expertise per sona graw. NOT. And by your very presence in Oberhausen you are some sort of expert? Or is it because of your accomplishments in the breed? Which, forgive me, are what? Debby has earned the respect of her piers. She has the right to her opinion. This is a board to share opinions (not try to dictate them as on the Green Board). Hey Deb, On the lighter side, we could have both followed Randy NOWHERE, FAST.

Kathy, Then let's address and define what the issue is here. There was an original post that offered an opinion of the helper work at the BSZS. This is fine since everyone has an opinion and it's all subject to debate. The issue as I perceive the issue are the comments made about the helpers being paid to cheat or if judges ignore the performance of certain dogs. This insinuation is goes outside the boundaries of opinion and into the relm of accusation. The line was crossed where information should have been provided to substantiate such a comment. The problem I personally have with unfounded information such as this is it casts an unfounded negative perspective on the SV system. It paints a picture that the SV and those that participate at the highest level are corrupt. I fine this unsubstantiated type of insinuation objectionable. I do not believe the helpers are paid by owners to change their work to accomodate a dog. Others have responded to this on this thread in a similar fashon. Debby has stepped up, expanded her thoughts and had a nice discussion with Daniella. Opinions were discussed without slandering the whole SV system. Refreshing for a change and hat's off to Daniella for sharing some good information and participating in another informative discussion. So, the issue as I see it. This board is read by thousands. For many it's hard to segregate the BS from real information. There are many reading this that think the German German shepherd system is corrupt and you have to have political resources to place well and be prepared to spend money buying favors. This perspective right or wrong affects many new people to the sport. We should all be ambassadors to the breed if we want to improve the breed. Making unfounded statements that degrade the system serve no usefull purpose and keep some that would otherwise participate and enjoy the raising of a GSD in the SV style system sitting on the sidelines for fear they do not have whatever it takes to contend with all the BS they read here about the German Shepherd.

Dog1 The issue is NOT helpers being paid off. As I stated earlier it was just a list of POSSIBLE reasons as to WHY THE ONE SPECIFIC HELPER DID NOT FOLLOW THE RULES AND DID NOT WORK EACH DOG IN THE SAME MANNER. It is a hugh difference when a helper is hiding and when they are standing in full view banging on the blind!!!!!!!!!! That Mr. knowitall Dog 1, is the issue!!!!!!!!!! You are just one of those followers like most of the rest in this thread that does not care what is right and wrong or about rules. As you have clearly stated for all to see. I have less than no respect for people of your kind, in fact distain for those who do not care about keeping the breed as it should be. If you all did, you would care as much as I do about following the rules!!!!!!!! Rules are made for many good reasons and to tell me to forget the rules is pathetic, appauling and outrageous and a very good reason not to respect, do business with or otherwise associate with your kind. I am in no way intimidated by anyone! ANYONE who does not care about following rules and sits by and ignores such blatetant wrong is only contrubuting to the problems with our current GSD's. It is you Dog1 that is truely blind and a detriment to the breed. Debby

DEBBY and KATHY, I am not a follower in this thread, But readers here do not want either of You Want-To-Beeeee's RANTING on this board! Neither of you contribute to the breed, just use it to EARN MONEY and PISS PEOPLE OFF! Debby, just read your WEB SITE, LOOK and SEE, How many Years experience in the Breed? Whos the Detriment to the BREED! Kathy, ever wonder why you can not get along with others on Boards and Regions! You two, are a match made in HELL! PEOPLE IN GLASS HOUSES SHOULD NOT CAST STONES! JUST AN OBSERVATION!

Tiger, you anonomous coward. What have you accomplished to even speak? And NoW you speak for all the readers on this board????You won't even show your REAL name. I don't have to discuss my friends but I often do defend them. But they are mostly dedicated to the Breed and not to cheating. Earn money? You obviously have never dealt with me. Mostly I SPEND money. My house is log not glass and you would appear to be an alter phony sign on for one of the "dirty dozen". I have looked back on your posts and you obviously have little to nothing to offer except negative cowardly attacks. But Tiger, sleep well, I will dedicate a novena for you.

PS Tiger, It is not so much that I don't get along with anyone in my Region (as we do have a private group of friends that train and enjoy our dogs) but I don't show or Trial in my Region. I drive by mapquest to working dog clubs to earn the ratings on my dogs. All of the dogs advertised on my webpage are ALIVE. I don't play games with that. My first year in training was with a National Helper (you wouldn't believe the stories he told and what was offered to him to "help" a weak dog past the bitework. Do you have any idea how much it cost "not to raise the stick"? It was a supplemental income!!!) Sorry, just sharing. Oh and Tiger, I have never bought a dog from a judge coming to an event at MY club setting up the WIN.What a marketing advantage!!! I did also notice how infatuated you were with Silbersee and Dog 1. So sorry if I offended you by not agreeing. Enjoy life Tiger.