Stud dog production in the US??? - Page 5

Schutzhund Field is the good way ty test the dog ?

Actually it's interesting to hear that coming from you Orville... I mean, we were talking about a stud dogs ability to pass on desired traits and qualities, and you are saying that a Schutzhund field is the place where a dog has to prove himself... Normally we would say that the Schutzhund field is the place to test a TRAINERS abilities... obviously the dog has to have the core potential, but it's ultimately the trainers responsibility to take that potential and mold the behaviors into a certain set of requirements that are shown at a SchH/IPO trial. David Kiewel

Trainers can't make a slow dog, fast. They can't make a weak dog, strong. The sport gives the Judge the opportunity to see the dog's true character. Do you have any doubt that these traits are genetic? This is not a retorical question, I would like to know your opinion. I believe that it takes certain genetic traits to excel at Schtuzhund. I believe that these genetic traits are tested on the Schutzhund field. There is no magic in Schutzhund training. The good dogs do well, and the not so good dogs don't. Are there bad trainers out there, sure. But for the most part the dog's genetics is the biggest factor in how well the dogs do.

In my experience most people that discredit Schutzhund or the dogs that excel at the sport, typically don't compete. The orginial question was concerning Stud dogs the like of Mink or Troll. Well how do we evaluate these dogs other than Schutzhund? Without Schutzhund would we know about Mink or Troll? (retorical questions)

in my experience if the law of the State that you live in and the Insurance Company that you insure you home with say that Schutzhund is not acceptable, you have a big problem if you are trying to train or compete with your dog. I don't care if you have a Mink or Troll in your pedigree, if you cannot legally train or compete with your dog what good is your pedigree? If the dog bites, the dog is a liability. Do you know a way to get aroung this?

If the dog has teeth the dog is a liability. As far as State Law, if you live in such a place then try to elected officals that might change the law. I can't imagine such a restrictive State, but I guess there are some out there. Concerning the Home owners insurance; shop around. If you just don't want to train in Schutzhund, that is your option. No one has to do it. It is not a requirement, nor should anyone do it that doesn't want to. That wasn't my train of thought. My critism was directed to those that don't believe Schutzhund has any merit. If you don't like Schutzhund, don't want to train in Schutzhund, fine - don't. Personally, I am glad that I live in a State that says Schutzhund is acceptable. "Not acceptable" - is that the same thing as against the Law, or is it just political incorrect there? (retorical question) You don't need any lame excuse not to do it. Just say you don't want to, nothing wrong with that.

wardawg, What exactly do you looking to see ata national trial? are you mostly concerned about the score or the performance? If its the score, at what score do you start thinking a dog may have something to offer? If its not the score, what scenario would make you stop and consider a dog that scores a 250 or 230?

Orville, I agree with you totally. I believe IPO/SchH/VPG, whatever it's being officially called right now - IS and should be the primary testing factor within the GSD breeding community... People can argue wether or not it has merit in testing a dogs ability in reference to the weaker "working line" dogs or even some of the show dogs that are not truly worthy of breeding (in my opinion) but have a SchH/IPO title and the requirements set by the SV, and therefore they are being used for breeding... I think we're very lucky to be involved and committed to a breed that has such a vast difference in *types*... there is something for everyone, if you don't like a certain type of dog or bloodline, great- get a dog that fits your personal taste. I believe in SchH/IPO as a test, that's not what I was saying... what I meant was that I think you can really see (if you have access to them) the quality of what types of traits, looks, health, etc. a specific dog (or line) is producing before the dogs are necessarily old enough to get out there and compete. Kathy P, just wondering - what state do you live in that prohibits Schutzhund training? I'm sure there are ways of meeting requirements and being able to train - I would like to think we still have some freedom. David Kiewel

Walter, I love the sport of Schutzhund. When I watch an event I look for focus and intensity. If the dog has high focus and is very intense, then the preformance and scores will be good. With focus you see that all of the fronts, and finishes will be correct. With intensity the fronts and finishes will be quick. With focus the guarding will be only on the helper. With intensity the dog will be daring the helper to move. With focus the dog will be concentrating hard on the track. With intensity the nose will be deep. If a dog has a poor score then the dog lost focus, intensity or both somewhere. Being able to maintain a high level of focus and intensity through three phases of a trial is a genetic trait. I can't seperate the score from the preformance. The score is a reflection of the preformance. To me a trial is a balance between power and control. If the dog is out of control but shows power, I question if the dog would have showed so much power if the handle had put the control on the dog. If the dog is under excellent control but doesn't show power, I question the dog's motor. Only when you see balance of power and control, do you see the real strength in a dog. When I see balance, focus, and intensity on the field, I grant you the score will indicate the preformance.

Walter, I want to add this concering the question about 230 or 250 scores. Any dog can have a bad day. I don't develope a complete opinion based on one trial. I would look at the dog over many trials. That said, dogs that score in this range (250 down) are distracted on the field. I would seek dogs that prove themselves on the field over and over to have focus. Again, I would look for what the dog does the majority of the time, not one or two trials.