Stud dog production in the US??? - Page 1

sorry about that.. Question, has there ever been a dog that has been bred and produced really strong working dogs in the US. In the same catagory as mink, troll, etc... im just wondering if there has been a working dog that has knda dominated the gene pool in the US. has there been a dog that has produced multiple national competitors(and by this i mean dogs that have come close to winning), in the same manner as fero, mink, etc... just wondering

No - but no dog has ever had a chance to be proven as a sire of proven working dogs - for many reasons IMO 1. there is a cachet to imports - so many litters are born and few pups ever get into solid working homes 2. kennel blindness and ego - everyone thinks the dog in their backyard is the greatest most, impressive, most powerful dog yada yada yada, and uses him no matter what his strenghts/flaws, no matter if he is producing mediocre ability or no ability or mixed, or if he really is the best choice for the females available - a very very small percentage of people actually train and breed their own dogs, most just buy breeding stock, importing bred females 3. the US is so big and there are really so few people in the sport here and there is just not the opportunity for many people who would like to enter the sport to do so....in 3 organizations maybe a total of 300 clubs - avg 6 per state??? usually clustered closely too!! 4. Dogs like Fero and Mink had breedings and progeny in very very very high numbers - 1400+/- for Fero - of course there are going to be some super ones, and lots of not so super ones - the demographics of the sport/breed in the US just do not support that kind of production from one male - not for breedings, not for sales, not for people involved in the sport who want to start a puppy instead of a titled or green dog, not for availablity of clubs, helpers etc etc etc. BTW - both Fero and Mink WERE in the US at one time - a friend of mine actually bred a litter from Fero with a well bred imported good producing female - but all pups went into oblivion....

Kougar just about covered most of the reasons why this is the case in the US. Few other things include the fact that a lot of breeders don't hold back a single pup from a breeding. It's pretty hard to know what you are producing if you don't get the opportunity to work them yourselves and rely on someone who in most cases will overrate their dog. Knowing the strengths of what you producing starts in your own back yard (so to speak). Of course knowing the traits well of the dam and sire but every good dog doesn't produce himself or half of himself. But having an idea of how that litter turns out may be better if breeders decided to at least become active in some working enviroment and trained what they bred so they can see with their own eyes what strengths and weakness come from that particular breeding. Also it may takes years (perhaps decades) to get some consistency to have a good grasp on producing consistently nice litters. Sure luck happens but some of the best producing kennels in Europe didn't happen overnight. Also breeders need to be honest with themselves in their breedings. Sometimes that nice KKL1 male in your kennel is not suitable for EVERY female. Consider outside breedings. I see that being a big problem these days.

Ugo vom Burenswald has produced many many good dogs all over the world. This years USA FCI World team has 2 Ugo sons on the team and another as second alternate. Also T. Floyd won the N. Americans with his Ugo son. The biggest problem is that when Ugo was in the US he only had less than 10 breedings here! In Europe, they bred to him a lot and had a lot of top dogs including a bitch from the Checzh Rep. that took the helper down on the long bite at last years WUSV Championship. There was also a son of his that placed 7th in the WUSV from Finland. For me, he was a super producer of working dogs all over the world. There may be more super producing dogs here at the moment, but if we don't use them, we will never know will we? We also brought over Link vom Muikenshof and Tino Leefdaalhof and the same story very little interest. Bingo Abfuhr for me was another super producer. Also Olex de Valsory is now here in this Country. Just my 2 cents.

Yes Olex is in the country but I'd be curious of how many of those $3k+ pups go to working homes. But as you said Sirk, Ugo did produce well. Ernst Weinbergblick was here in the states and he produced well too. He wasn't used much for several reasons. Most of his nice sons and daughters I know of are in Europe. Cliff Schwedenbrunnen is with BodyguardK9 (Atlanta) and has produced some nice sons and daughters. Don't know of any active Cliff son or daughter that is up and coming Belschik von Eicken-Bruche was another nice producer that was bought by the Kiewel brothers here in the states. Belschik too was a nice producer. He several outside breedings and some went to working homes. Not sure about the nubmers. Errr...eerr... let me think.... who else...hmmm... There are several nice studs here that have consistently produced well. Whether their progeny start showing well on the field has some to do with how the breeder places his or her pups although sometimes you'll get that lie from a buyer saying they will train the pup only for them never to. Stuff happens.... With the US wallets looking for tasty in the Europeans eye, we can certainly have access to a LOT of nice studs these days. Probably more now than ever... The day after the BSP, you may just very well find your next stud machine. LOL

kougar --you bring up many excellent points -- you almost can't even compare the USA to europe -- first the outlook to dogs is so totally different -- as most know in germany there is a GSD club or more in almost every town/city and that is no exaggeration to the newcomers -- i have been to clubs where in one night there must have been 40 dogs plus not to mention the numbedr of members -- in the usa gee in maine i don't think there is but more if thatr schutzhund club and about two to three ring clubs -- people just arent into the sports as much and the value of the working dog just isn't up to par with europe yet-- additionally look at how we are increasingly banning dogs in most towns in the usa .. let alone introducing protection sports -- to bad -- for the best all round working dog , the GSD

I also "vote" for Ugo Burenswald...proven tract record of producing good dogs! If I remember correctly, his brother Ultro went to someone in the NE USA (maybe New York state?).

Sorry more thoughts keep popping in my head... But another factor is some of the "MASS PRODUCING" kennels get super nice producing stud dogs and they say "NO OUTSIDE BREEDING" Of course they use the infamous line "Well this is to ensure the quality of the female, yadda, yadda, yadda". I don't believe that line any more. So are so many ways of finding out about the quality of the bitch possibly to be used with your male. Does Europe do this? Hmmm..... not really. Basic requirements are the titles and the koer but even some of the "MASS PRODUCING" kennels could care less about this. They want limited stud use to rake in all the $$$ themselves. That's my opinion and I'm sticking to it. LOL

Here I am again... Just for statistical information Ernst Vom Weinbergblick had (4) sons in 2005 BSP. Of course the BSP is not the only avenue for judging good production but it does have merit List of dam/sire for 2005 BSP participants http://www.schelmenturm.de/BSP2005Teilnehmer.htm