Stud dog production in the US??? - Page 4

What do you guys think of Ellute's half brother Gringo v. d. Mohnwiese for a stud dog?

Well, I think if you want Jago Lindenhalle for some reason over Yoschy then go with Gringo opposed to Ellute... I have a litter that was born yesterday (13 puppies) from my 9 year old SchH3, IPO3, KKL Lbz. "a" normal Crok Erlenbush daughter AND the father is Ellute Mohnwiese... I used Ellute because I wanted a linebreeding on Fero, not Mink, and I love what I've seen from Ellute... So for me, it fits for my long-term breeding plans. Here is the pedigree for the puppies: http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/pedigree/474004.html David Kiewel

Well, I disagree with the 2 to 3 year period. You mentioned Bastin, and I have a little knowledge about him so let's use him as an example. He was here for some time before he was used to the degree that has been. What I mean by that in the first 10 months he was here he was not used that much as a stud. This has to do with the people wanting to him having to wait on Bitches coming into heat, the time it takes to get people to realize he is here, and for people to see him on the field. Afterwards he was used very much, he was breed extensitively, this started in about this time of year in 02, and continued for the next couple of years. These pups are just now turning 4 years old, and I am sure you will see several hitting the field and doing well soon. The majority of his pups were born in 03 and 04, it will be another year or two before you see these pups on the field. Now if over the next few years Bastin doesn't produce anything of note, you could say he was "over used" because he was on the podium. However, I wonder how manner Sch I's he will have to produce to be considered a good producer? How many Sch III? How many top competition dogs does it take to consider the Stud as a good producer? To be honest I am biased towards Bastin, as I have a Bastin son. He is a good dog, and I can't believe he is the only one. I have no doubt that this Bastin son will be competiting at a high level very soon. I expect that next year more will be out there, based on what I have seen in my dog. But the point holds true on all imports, you must give them 6 to 8 years after they arrive before you can honestly judge them as a producer.

Well, Bastin isn't a very good example of a top production dog that is here in the States- as you may have a good son of his, I've seen a lot of junk coming from him... and I live in Germany about 9 months out of the year, and I can tell you that from the VERY small number of breedings he had there in Germany- the results are NOT impressive in terms of what he produced... why do you think he was sold to the States? Because he wasn't getting the breedings in GErmany because of the results of the puppies form his first few litters... I am not trying to make anyone angry or offend anyone, just telling facts- and it's not just my opinion, I mean, if you can prove me wrong please do so. David Kiewel

You didn't answer my questions. How many Sch I's, how many Sch III's would it take for you to consider a dog a good producer. I don't think anyone will get angry or offended with you. All you are doing is giving your opinion. What I would like to know is how you base your opinions. Living 9 months a year in Germany doesn't mean much to me, as million of people do this. What does have meaning is your criterias. Do you expect a good producer to have 10, 20, or 500 Sch I's? What determines a good producer in your opinion?

Okay, thanks! :-) Sorry for not answring your questions, I didn't know you were honestly asking my opnion on that- thought the question was retorical. I don't put any number of titles, I think you need to look at procentages... If a dog has two litters or so from really strong proven females and all the puppies are sub-par, then it would not be a dog that I would use for breeding... And in terms of why Bastin didn't get more breedings in Germany, is for the very same reason- he wasn't producing! And you don't have to wait 3 to 4 years to see what a dog is producing... it is more like within the first 6 to 12 months you can see if you like the results or not... but I'm trying to explain this to a person who basis "quality" on titles, and National level competitions... All I'm saying is that Bastin for sure should not be considered as one of the top producing dogs like Mink or Fero, because he simply is not producing super strong dogs consistantly. Maybe you have a good dog from Bastin, and I'm happy that you like your dog- everyone should be pleased with their dog, or else it's time to get a new one, or find another hobby. Just wondering, do you happen to have any video footage of your Bastin son in action? Let us have a look - it doesn't take a title or score to see what the dog has... a simple video will do all the explaining. :-) And in terms of Bastin's ZW rating and that of his parents, here is what we're looking at: Bastin 89 Mother 97 Father 94 David Kiewel

In fact, if you'd like to see a few very short clips of MY 3rd generation breeding in Germany, then here you go... this is what I look for in puppies of 5 months old or so: http://www.kiewelworkingdogs.com/media/Lex-vhk-5mo..wmv http://www.kiewelworkingdogs.com/media/Lola-vhk-5mo..wmv http://www.kiewelworkingdogs.com/media/Lolita-vhk-5mo.wmv Here are the same 3 dogs from my L-litter at 10 months old: http://www.kiewelworkingdogs.com/media/lex-vhk-pro.AVI http://www.kiewelworkingdogs.com/media/lola-vhk-pro.AVI http://www.kiewelworkingdogs.com/media/lolita-vhk-pro.AVI They are 18 months old now, I'll be making video of them next week during training and list those videos as well, all three dogs are ready for the SchH1 and are INSANE fast, SUPER Barking, SUPER control... Don't take my word for it, wait and see it with your own eyes. DK

I don't have any videos. I will show him on the field, there nothing can be edited, or the helpers making the dog look a certain way. I don't make this remark towards your dogs because I haven't seen the vedios. I don't put much stock in them, unless there are at a trial. Maybe videos is a better way to see the dog in action, but it is not for me. I will stick with the old fashion way of seeing it on the Schutzhund field. "but I'm trying to explain this to a person who basis "quality" on titles, and National level competitions..." You don't know what I base quality on at all. The only point that I have attempted to make is that you can't rust to judgement so fast on production. However,if I understand you correctly, you can figure this out in 6 months. You keep bringing up Germany. A thought just occured to me: If you breed two dogs twice once in Germany, and then later in the US; will the first breeding be better because of the location? The reason I ask is because you keep bringing up Germany as if it has mystical breeding powers. This question was retorical.

Yes, because we all know that the dogs out of Germany are SOOOO much better than dogs bred in another country! ;-) Because their genetics would be different given the fact they have "PINK SV PAPERS" opposed to AKC, or no papers... I was merely stating they are in Germany to be as specific about what the dogs are doing- and I'm using my other references to "Germany" only because it makes for an interesting conversation... Orville, let me ask you a question - did you have your Bastin son from a puppy age, or did you get him as an adult already? You've been around a long time man, I'm not arguing with you, I'm agreeing with on this topic. my point is, that you can see what the dog has from a young age, you don't have to wait until he is competing to see if he is a good dog. That's all I was trying to say... Sorry if I didn't clearify it properly though, sometimes it's hard to communicate your feelings or opinions on these boards... and I'm doing like 50 things at once, so sometimes it's hard for me to clearly state my opinion. David Kiewel

I have had my dog since he was 7 weeks old. I have liked him since the day I got him, and consider him to be a very solid dog. But right now he is nothing, but potential. He will have to prove himself on the field. I know that he is a good dog, but the Schutzhund Field will test how good. However, he is just one dog. Even if he does extremely well the Jury will still be out on Bastin, we must see how he produces over the long run. That is all that I am saying. That is the same with all stud dogs, when you are judging them as producers. Now if you want to judge them in the short term as what he produces because you are trying to decide to breed to them or not, you just have to take what information you have at the time. But that is different from declaring that a dog is a good or bad producer.