Stud dog production in the US??? - Page 3

Also, I would like to make a comment about Ugo Burenswald, and my own dog Belschik v. Eicken-Bruche... only a few breeders actually recognized the POWERFUL impact that these dogs had already had on the breed and decided to use them while they were still alive and here in the States. Ugo and Belschik receiving not so many breedings in Europe and still put several dogs at the Nationals in several different countries, the BSP, WUSV and FCI... I would like to ask anyone who is reading this what first hand experience they have had or seen themselves from progeny from Ugo or my Belschik... and this will solidify my point quite well. Then you look at the production of some of the *Over used* dogs like Alk (Lord son), Pirol (Nessel son), and even Stormfronts Brownson, Bastin Kokeltal, Basko v.d. Lutter, and many more dogs that were bred to like crazy because they were on the podium... (I know this may piss the owners off, but a fact is a fact - sorry guys, you knew what you had!) David Kiewel www.vomhauskiewel.com

Conversation sure brought Marlene and David out the woodworks. We should talk about this stuff more often (just kidding). Of course people can charge what they want for stud fees but people can say what is too pricey especially for a dog that isn't proven. Proven doesn't mean because he won this nice trial or that nice trial. Proven means he produces nice working prospects. At least that's my definition of proven. So far I think Zidane has been producing well. Of course I hear more people rave about the Zidane females. I'm sure he has some nice males out there and I would sure welcome anyone to comment on them since I plan to keep a Zidane male from an upcoming litter. I have seen several dogs sired by Belschik as well. They all seemed to have his super fast courage tests and the power behind him. Most were extreme in drive and a few hectic but I'd take that any day over one without drives. LOL Eick von der berger Hochburg owned by Mike Diehl has consistently produced nice pups. They all seem to carry those gripping power that comes thru Yoschy. I've seen a few Pirol Enclavehof sired dogs. Had a grand daughter of Pirol. Nice dog overall, extreme hunt drive, but hearsay and some evidence point towards Nessel and Pirol for soft teeth issues. Cliff Schwedenbrunnen produced several sons competing in the BSP but nothing I know well here in the states. Maybe someone has a better explanation than I would give, but how do all these notable dogs get to the states and any traces of good progeny from these dogs seem to disappear????? Any thoughts? comments...

Excellent producer- Ellute vd Mohnwiese who stud fee is 400EURO last time I inquired. Hutch Dunklen Zwinger who will probably be one of the most used stud dogs in Germany is about the same price. Oh but that's in Europe so that doesn't count right??? Food for thought

I wish it was only an eight hour drive to Zidane....I just shipped a dog a real 10,000 miles ROUNDTRIP to be bred to Zidane! (Alaska to Alabama and back) It's worth every penny and all the trouble. I intend to do it again if Marlene will let me. Thank you Marlene! I will keep a Zidane pup for myself out of this litter. I have considered shipping a female to Germany for a breeding to a WUSV Champion there also, but the cost of shipping from Germany nearly DOUBLED for me this last time! If the cost of shipping comes back down, I will give it a try. Anyone with opinions as to who is their favorite WUSV champ? :-)Who would you breed to if you were to ship to Germany? Hello David, how's my Hungarian girl coming along? Jaks vom haus Kiewel (Belschik son) has his BH, he should attain his SchH1 next month. Jaks is an awesome dog, he has a lot of fans in the Schutzhund clubs here, who have seen him working. Veronica www.worthykennels.com

Hudsonhaus in Mississippi has SG Jabina Falco, 2005 WUSV participant, who is five years younger than Ugo vom Burenswald and Ernst Weinbergblick. Anyone know what he's producing?

"Then you look at the production of some of the *Over used* dogs like Alk (Lord son), Pirol (Nessel son), and even Stormfronts Brownson, Bastin Kokeltal, Basko v.d. Lutter, and many more dogs that were bred to like crazy because they were on the podium... (I know this may piss the owners off, but a fact is a fact - sorry guys, you knew what you had!)" Just because they are used a lot does not make them *over used*. They very fact that they are used a lot will make their productions numbers very low, because there are not a high precentage of these pups being sold to working homes. Don't fault the dogs because the typically buyer can't put a title on a dog even if it has the genetics to be a V rated Dog.

One other dog that I like very much for breeding currently is Kanto Firecatcher. In germany, I must have seen 7-8 sons and daughters from him with different females, all of them were excellent. The handler who has him now is not a "Big Name" handler, (Kevin Coombs) but I can tell you that he has one hell of a producer in his kennel! And to my point earlier, he has had Zero outside breedings with him thus far. I also like what I have seen from Belschik, very fast, powerful dogs with strong barking. I understand all of the difficulies that we face here in America, but as this thread did start out by asking if there has EVER been a dog in the US...... My point is they ARE here, but we have to use them to benifit.

Hi Veronica! Your girl is coming along great - trying to get the AKC stuff taken care of - just to make sure it isn't an issue to have it done... So nice to see your ebsite up and running - all the dogs look great, you have some really great dogs there!! :-) need to put some ore pix of the Arras pups! Also, I can't wait for my bi-color female puppy from Anouk/Jaks. (keeping my fingers crossed) Back to the topic, I think it is the breeders responsibility to get their puppies into proper experienced working homes, or to be more supportive in the ventures of their new puppy owners journey into the "working dog world"... look what Veronica is doing, that is a great incentive for people to actually do something with their new puppy! I think I can say "Over used". when I'm talking about some of the stud dogs in the USA who have been bred dozens and dozens of times just because they were on the podium... You would think that at least some of the puppies from 100+ litters would eventually get into the hands of someone who would compete or work the dog... That may have been a great cop-out like 15 years ago, but now we've got a LOT of support in terms of dogsport here in the USA, so there isn't a good excuse for a breeder who doesn't place his/her puppies into working homes... Also, there is no excuse for a breeder who constantly uses titled/imported females in their breeding program and never actually trains/titles their own dogs- or who doesn't use their own dogs in their breeding program... I mean, if a breeder won't even work their own puppies, why would anyone else want to???? David Kiewel www.vomhauskiewel.com www.kiewelworkingdogs.com

The Breeder does have some limited control, but not much. There is only about 100 GSD handlers that compete at National event, many of them purchase mature dogs half trained from Europe. Even so the owner of the Stud has zero control of where the pups go. Also you have to consider that it is typically years after a dog is imported that you see their offspring on the competition field. Most dogs are 4 years old before they are ready for National events. You need to wait until the bulk of the offspring is at that age before you pass judgement of these dogs. It could be 6 years after the dog comes here before that becomes a reality. The bottom line is there is less than 50 possible homes for these dog to get into to have a chance to prove the Sire is something special. I base that number on the number of HOT entries at National events, and then you have to consider that among that number the owner/handler is going to compete with his dog for several years. And then even some of these HOT entries are purchased in Europe. That number will decline as the criteria has change back again.

Wardawg, I totally agree with you - but I'm not really talking about "National" level events... also, the dogs I was referring to have had plenty of time to prove their merit in terms of being a stud dog that we could easily consider a "proven" stud. So, yes, the younger dogs out there are really going to prove themselves over a period of at least 2 to 3 years in terms of being able to judge the working ability/quality of their progeny. It would help if these dogs people are claiming to be God's gift to the GSD community would actually keep a good son/daughter of their so called "SUPER" stud and train/compete with it themselves.... Surely with the number of females being bred to the "over used" dogs, there would be a few good females and the owner of the stud dog would negotiate taking a puppy for themselves to *replace* their "super dog" in the future... I guess I'm a little bitter at the guys out there who claim to have an awesome dog and then 4 to 5 years later you see them saying the same sh*t about their new dog- normally a European import as well. David