head types... Male vs Female - Page 1

Something I learned growing up on the ranch, when my Dad was picking out replacement heifers he chose much in regards to the feminity of the heifers heads, the more femanine the head the more fertile the heifer. a bullish or steerish looking head on a heifer often resulted in a "free martin" or heifer with a complete lack of any ability to reproduce, so those sporting a bullish or steerish head were never kept as replacements. Now that I've explained that I have a question for those of you who care to respond. I see ads on here all the time... Male this and that blah blah blah,, but when I look at the photo I could swear the head is of a female and if it's just a head shot photo well who's to say I guess, maybe they put the wrong photo up or maybe that dog really does have a female type head. Same with Females advertised, just rescently a solid black female head shot only and I could swear that dog is a male by that head. My question is this... would you worry about the breedability of a female with such a masculine head ? and would that not be considered a fault ? And would the same apply to a male, I would not be particulary interested in breeding to a male with a feminine head. and is that fault for a male to present a femanin head ? I know this is probably very rudimentary but just curious what your thoughts are. and honestly don't remember when reading the standards seeing this but thought I saw something somewhere about heads matching gender. BTW not trying to pick on any certain persons dog here just something I've noted from the ads placed here now and then so please don't think I'm singleing anyone out, that is not the intent of the post.

I think you ask some good questions, and I appreciate you bringing up this topic. I think you are following a correct train of thought. Males should be masculine and females should be feminine. These secondardy sex characteristics should be pronounced. Personally, I wouldn't breed a dog that lacked sexual definition in its appearance and structure. Other opinions, anyone?

Echo, a freemartin calf is the female of a pair of two twin calves of different sex. It happens because the male's sex organs develop first, and start producing testosterone, which messes up the female's reproductive system. It has absolutely nothing to do with the shape of the mom's head! I'm not saying your dad's system didn't have any validity, I'm just telling you what the official definition of a freemartin is. (Yeah, I have a lot of dairy farmers in the family...) I'd pass on a doggy looking bitch not because I'd be afraid she wouldn't be fertile, but because it's contrary to the breed standard, and if I were planning on showing her, it would likely count against her in the ring.

and maybe these calves were not the true definition of free martin as you understand and present it here, but it was the term always used when a heifer lacked ovaries or had severe underdevelopment of them. (Term used by every vet I've known and worked with.) Thanks for the thoughts so far, looking forward to hearing what others have to say.

Okay, I think I got something backwards here. I thought you were saying a masculine looking heifer would produce freemartin calves, or else not be fertile at all, while you were saying she might be a freemartin herself. DUH! Sorry I misunderstood. I was posting pre-caffeine fix. (And, yes, a freemartin would have a more masculine head than a normal heifer.)

You guys are talking about GENETICS right??? I was thinking Wienerau/Arminius-free lines... I prefer a masculine looking head, not to the extent of size and bone... Probably with head construction (but not too heavy) and pigmentation... A well constructed female is a plus, if you disregard the color and coat...She must still move and act FEMALE. I remember a breeder selecting females with masculing heads, he said to ensure the next progeny will have masculine heads.