Show gait not Natural - Page 6

I stayed away from the roach..lol I did not see her sire but did get to see the dam a couple of times, and she was extremenly impressive not only in looks and movement but in temperment, very nice.

I recently read DesertRanger's post on herding dogs that weren't actually herding. Having had some of the best GSDs tending sheep in the US, I can assure you that Dallas read stock beautifully, could work all day and had the dilegence and work ethic to make an excellent working dog. I tend sheep with mostly GSDs and have trained hundreds of dogs of a wide variety of blood lines. As long as they are decently constructed, most GSDs of all bloodlines seem to tend. The dogs that have had the most problems with the work are actually the working line animals. These dogs tend to lack the physical soundness that enables the dog to trot for hours on end. Square, blocky dogs may gallop and jump at great bursts of speed and power but they have little stamina and timing to trot endlessly. As a shepherd, we wnat a trotting dog that can work all day and stay sound. Trotting dogs stay sounder than a dog that consistently gallops as two legs are supporting the animals weight at any given time as opposed to a gallop when only one leg supports the weight of the dog. We also want a dog that trots because it is more relaxing to the sheep. That doesnot mean that a herding dog doesn;t have good turn of foot when asked. Some of the dogs I have worked open their trots up and trot faster than most dogs gallop, others shift up to a quick gallop. The tending tradition of our breed dictates that the breed is a trotting animal first nad foremost. I like to see a dg that is well balanced and can shorten and lengthen his stride without changing the rate of his steps. I have problems with the American dogs as well as many of the German dogs that can only work at one speed. The American dogs with their high headed, long stepping gait are inefficient if they cannot lengthen and shorten. The German dogs that plod heavily or move with short strides are also inefficient and as incorrect. Part of the problem is the result of how we have shown them. In American show rings judges look for dogs that move slow but with a long stride. This dog has no way to get faster without taking more steps. The Germans have also distorted the gait by showing the dogs pulling for hours...they are not sled dogs. This has resulted in short but powerful gait that reminds me of a draft horse pulling a plow. The Schutzhund people don't care about the gait as long as the dog gallops and launches itself in the air for a very brief period of time. All of these have distorted what the dogs in the name of winning at a particuler venue. Where to really judge whether or not we have a correct GSD...Do what Von Stephanitz did, watch the dog working on a graze for hours without input from the shepherd. Too bad they can't all be judged that way. Then you really get to see what you have. Susan

Susan, I am learning so much from you! Thank you for your post!

Ditto, Sunsilver.

Susan I am not saying anything bad about Dallas as I have always heard alot of good things about him. I was trying to see why he was being called #1 rated herding dog when I could not find any reports that he has ever won any herding contest or worked on a ranch. I noticed you said "I can assure you that Dallas read stock beautifully, could work all day and had the dilegence and work ethic to make an excellent working dog." Which again, says he could but never did? On the subject of herding GSD's I can tell you in Texas I have never seen many herding GSD's on real ranches. Most are border collies and austrlian dogs. I have seen a few in competitions though. Sounds like you have seen GSD's actually working sheep on a ranch?

DesertRangers, you are confusing Dallas with his offspring, Geneva. Dallas was titled in herding, Geneva was not. My mistake! See the Dayglyn website for a list of his titles. HSC is a herding title. http://www.nvo.com/glyn/dayglynsmemorialtodallas/

Excellent post, firethorn. Undoubtedly one of the very best ever on this forum. Yes, anyone who knows about Dallas specifically knows that he was a very good specimen of the GSD breed in confirmation and temperament based on the FCI standard. He produced very well and has been a great force for good in the American breed. And yes his and his progeny's movement has been very good. What is key however is that the great traits he carried usually come out most in the second and third generations (good bone, masculinity in males, dry working type, great feet and thick pads, excellent pigment, short backs). This is the definition of a "true producer". This producing ability is especially magnified if his line is combined with Sel Ch. Du Chien's We Love Rollins blood (probably the best and most correct sidegaiting GSD ever). Both these studs have carried some problems and must be used judiciously to avoid them. But both are very worthwhile when bred properly. Dallas tends to clean up problems other than the very small one he carries. He is certainly was a great force for good in the breed. Firethorn, you really understand how the various GSD "dog sports" exagerated emphasis on divergent show or trial goals have resulted in a three way fractionation and distortion of the standard and complex problems which are not necessary. Again, proper selection of what a good GSD is physically, mentally and specifically in movement comes down to the knowledge, judgement and perceptual skills of the breeder, trainer or owner/buyer. And yet given all the foibles and biases of the SV in the haupzuchschau ring, great and very correct showline dogs are constantly being bred, shown and sold in W. Germany. No doubt the black and red properly constructed and temperamented zuchshau GSDs are clearly the most attractive and the most correct in general, although often not placed in the highest positions or even shown at the biggest shows. Again one has to know what good is and how to selct that.

OK... Had to read back..too many days between posts.. Actually my point was not anything about Dallas other than his son was rated #1 herding dog (AKC) without anything we can find to justify or back it up. Also, it is one thing to compete in herding under controlled circumstances and another thing to actually work on a ranch all day working rough terrain and wide areas which to call a American GSD working lines is very questionable to me. I would add to firethorns post that while a gait is nice the dog must have drive and want too attitude or it will quit anyway. I know this from training trailing dogs as you can't make them track nor make them lead out, it's all in the drives. You need both and my working line female was tracked in the desert during hot summer days, low humidity, little vegetation and for miles at a trot. Physically nor mentally she never had a problem and she has the typical WD conformation.

Dallas' offspring, Geneva, is a bitch.

Geneva, is a Dallas daughter, is maybe the #1 herding dog in the country. This is not herding in the field or a performance event but in the show ring. She is the # whatever showdog in the herding group. In AKC shows, there are seven groups; sporting, hounds, terriers, non-sporting, toys, working and herding. German shepherd Dogs are in the herding group as their original purpose is herding. The herding breeds were part of the working group but it was split into two groups in the 80s. Actually Rottis and Samoyeds wanted to be in the herding group but were denied. Geneva has no titles after her name. In AKC working titles (companion titles and performance titles) follow the dog's name. Championships preceed the dog's name. Companion titles include obedience, tracking, rally, and agility. Performance titles are specific field titles the breed can earn, pointing, retriever, flushing spanial, coonhounds, beagles, coursing, earthdog, and herding, field titles. There are no rankings for GSDs in herding events at this time. We do award a herding victor or victrix at the National herding event but often there is no tending or C course offered. Within herding there are three courses, A (an arena course that is very similar to an Aussie trial, best dogs in here are Aussies, Border Collies, Australian Cattle Dogs, Rotties) B which is the same as the ISDS or Border Collie course (and BCs dominate the course), and C course which is a large flock tending course that is similar to a miniature HGH. All breeeds can compete on any course they want to compete on. The vast amjority of dogs in this country are trialed on A as it is the easiest to put on in that it takes the lowest numbers of stock and the least amount of space, and you can judge 50 runs a day. C is probably the least popular as it takes at least 25 head of sheep, several acres to put th coursee in and a judge canonly judge 12-15 runs in a day. However C is growing in popularity as it is very natural for GSDs, Briards, Belgians and Beauceron. Other breeds such as shelties are alos working successfully. We recently held the largest C course trials ever in February in Texas. We had lots of breeds working including GSDs, Briards, Belgians, a smooth collie, shelties and even a Pembroke Welsh Corgi competed. We hope to hold an HGH in Texas in 2008 as well as the GSDCA National herding event. You probably don't see many GSDs working on ranches in TExas, it is a very different environemnt from the grazing conditions in Germany and Europe. The GSD was bred to work under those conditions. trying to force a GSD to do the work an Aussie or a BC was bred to work is like using a hammer drive in a screw. It can be done, but not easily. Susan