SHY PUPS/TEMPERAMENT POTENTIAL - Page 1

Just looking for folks to share their opinion on what type of temperament a SHY puppy can have if not properly socialized and if no longer living in a positive situation. If this said puppy was splitting time with another male puppy, same age...say 13 weeks, and the other puppy is more dominent... and the owners are ignorant and feel the puppies will be "brothers" and dont foresee any issues at all with there ever being any problems with two males, intact, in one home. I am trying to educate an inexperienced mind that has no clue how a puppy can leave a home with excellent temperament and how situations and non socializing and no contact with people and having a puppy like this left with another male puppy with not much human interaction, no structure, can be potentially a disaster if not taken seriously. If you wouldnt mind sharing your credentials (ie breeder, trainer, experienced GSD owner etc...) would be appreciative :) Regards, Dawnmarie

Not sure if I understand correctly what you are trying to get at exaclty. Question: how can a pup leave home with an excellent temperament, but be shy at only 13 weeks? Either something has happened to the pup so that it is now freightened? Or was it already a shy pup before it left? Shy but otherwise nice. In general, if this is a shy pup at 13 weeks and goes to live with a stronger pup of the same age, then these two will most likely have it worked out for the rest of theirs lives who will be boss and who follows the boss. Most common problems I foresee is that the owners are trying to "equalize" such dogs, thus being the cause for constant problems. Often people are trying to artificiall elevate the weaker dog (awww, poor poochey, we need to help you), but that dog usually cannot handle or hold onto that position. The stronger dog will always try to defend the strong position it feels entitled to and will therefore constantly be in conflict with the weaker pup. That means trouble ahead. If one pup is already allowed to dominate the other, the people involved are apparently not the No.1 in this scenario. That will most likely spell trouble too. The dominant pup can easily grow up to terrorize the whole family. Its position is constantly reinforced by the successful bullying of the weaker pup, most likely then other dogs. If if works there, lets see if it works with the humans too. The strong pup should not allow to bully the other, or any other dog or person, nor should the weaker pup get special treatment because it is the weaker one. The weak pup will also most likely stick to the stronger pup like glue and become its shadow, become totally dependent on the stronger dog. If these two were ever separated, the weaker dog would have a very tough time dealing with the separation. That could apply to short term separations as well, as taking the strong dog to training while leaving the weaker dog at home. The neighbors will love the barking. Also 2 pups growing up together often bond more with one another than they will with their people. Then later people wonder why their dogs are not listening, or the dogs are taking off together terrorizing the neighborhood, why they become unruly or unmanagable. If two pups of the same age are growing up together it is important to make sure they both get some alone time. They need to learn some independence, get some individual kennel time, or crate time, etc. They need to learn to bond with the owner as individuals. Such as only one gets to go along to the beach for a walk, while the other stays at home in the crate. Every dog, regardless of how many dogs or people it grows up with, needs to be socialized to experience the world outside the home,or else the outside world becomes very strange to them and they will later react accordingly. If someone never intends to take their dogs off the property then that is their choice. It could become a life sentence for the dogs though. Note - all pups go through a fear impringint phase in the 9th week. If this pup did have some bad experiences during that time it could very possible have lasting negative results, making a once good pup more fearful, nervy or reactive.

Thanks for the thoughtful post, DH. What do you do differently (if anything) during the 9th week?

I try to avoid frightful moments for the pup during that time (all time while growing up really, but especially then). If a pup has gone home at 8 weeks I tell the new owners to keep things light during that time. No excursions that could put the pup into a freightful situation, such as getting beaten up by another dog, loud unfamiliar noises, unfamiliar situations, the pup getting hurt. The pup should bond at home with the family at that time and get used to the new environment first. That is all it can handle really at that time. Socialization to the outside world comes after puppy knows security comes from the new owner. There is enough time for more once the pup is fully established at home. I usually recommend not to take a pup off the property until after the second vaccination at 11-12 weeks. Maybe have the pup travel in the crate in the car, take it to places that are not so much frequented by other people and other dogs if you feel you must take the puppy places. Taking the pup to friends places that seem a safe choice can be frightful if there are other pets present that are not so kind to the pup, or kids that tease the pup, do not leave the pup alone, etc. Best to think ahead about possible what ifs. I usually try to avoid shipping at that time, but that depends on the individual pup. If I can ship several pups at the same time in the same crate then that has always worked fine at that stage. Or if the pup is already used to the crate and maybe even travelling in the crate in the car for example. Then an airtrip is within what is familiar already. At arrival stick to the above. Summary - use common sense. If something frightening does happen to the pup at that time it is important NOT to baby the puppy. Babying the pup will only reinforce that it is rightfully feeling frightened. The owner is just confirming that through the babying. It is also VERY important to remain calm and as indifferent to the situation as possible. Do not freak, do not get angry, stay calm. And as long as it is safe to do so remain in the situation as long as possible, until puppy seems to have dealt with it and calms down on its own. Then I would sit down with it for a while and just have it and me relax a bit. It can then crawl into my lap if it wants to, but only after things are back to normal. If the pup gets to remain there for a while under a neutral situation, it can see that nothing else is going to happen to it and it learns that bad situations do pass. Then I go back there deliberately in the following days to make sure puppy learns that there will be no repeat performances. Best to avoid trouble to begin with though.

males puppies should be separated by this age, when they start to be agressive they need to win. the shy one should go to a pet home, then devote the effort on the better one. ball training, tug training work better when individual training is given. no special care should be given to the shy pup, let it see the world, don't wait for shots, they have the mothers milk til weaned, then the first shot should be given by 8 wks. if they need protecting the lines are weak. get them out for training, don't live with a shy pup, its not worth the effort. there too many good puppies to live with a weak one. credentials? a lotta yrs, in the breed.

First of all - DH has it all nailed down - Second - This really grabs me -- anybody who would buy two MALES of the same age should have their head examined - and if ONE breeder sold an ignorant pet person LITTERMATERS - and said they will work it out- they should be taken out beind the kennels and SHOT !

THANKS... its very important for "petowners" to understand that two male puppies is typically NOT the best thing to do.... for the record, one breeder was snowed, lied to and taken advantage of and the other breeder KNOWINGLY sold a family the OTHER MALE and KNEW this family was going to be getting a MALE pup from a REPUTABLE breeder!!!!!!!!!!! They never told the REPUTABLE breeder about the puppy UNTIL the puppy was having difficulties, 5 weeks later!!!! Dawnmarie

see !! another reason why I quit breeding !! at some point in the processs - you have to involve PEOPLE !! Now who's suffering = the PEOPLE -- AND THE PUPS !!! They better separate them - and better yet - get one of them another home !! It's not fair - everybody suffers.

Did the "shy" pup start out shy or did he become shy because he's been bullied by the older pup? I might have misunderstood but I thought he started out confident then became shy after going to this home ..the point is important to future dog owners to show what can happen to a confident puppy if not in the right situation.. What was the "owners" and your expectaions when the puppy was sold...was he to be a pet? I am sorry this has happened, it shows you are a good breeder that you care about the puppy still...