Dominant puppies - Page 4

Raised one or more complete litters to ( a degree of ) maturity, in identical circumstances ? That would be me, Bubs. Not always quite that neat - one litter of 4 pups, all into adulthood - check. Pups from a litter of 8 until three of them left at seven months - check. 'Inherited' litters or part litters of adult or near-adults (so not seen as baby puppies) - 3 ...just for one employer. Bought-in pups run together for a few months, one then kept and other two exported ...Contact with my mentor's kennel when 3 or more pups 'run on' from various litters, varying amounts of time, again no changes in location, diet, owner etc - more than 3. Surely that is enough dog-watching to satisfy your criteria ?

Jen, I TRIED not to have 'favourites', I really did !
Actually I think there is a lot of truth in what you wrote; but also some in what Bubba says. Maybe the answer is somewhere in the middle; I agree a lot is to do with who is doing the assessing / picking, and for why.

Dawulf- Incorrect

The answer is 5 1/3 as one pup is not quite under the couch. 

@bubba

Do you make this stuff up as you go along? 

Bubba: "Fewer than 10% of dogs have a genetic component that plays a major role in their development or life and many of those dogs suffer as much as they profit from some theoretical genetic bonanza"

Gigante: Is that made up number? Identify these 10% please. Study please? What factors make 4% and what factors make 10%. 

Bubba: "Predicting an individual puppy's outcome versus it's litter mates at eight weeks is like predicting the future of a group of two year old humans at a day care center based on observation. It's like picking the next Miss Universe based on baby photos. "

Gigante: Daily observation of pups from 3-14 weeks is kinda of not the same as looking at a pic and finding Miss America. I dont believe anyone stated a dominant pup was headed for seal team 4.3. Traits observed can be majorly effected by enviroment who argued against that? Your need to go to serious extreme is your fault in therory.

Its a baseline measure for apptitude in skill set, not a f' guarantee. If I see a very social pup with other dogs whom never exibited dog aggression and I let my mean mofo's kick his/her butt every occasion they can, the movie or storyline in the dogs head will change. Social will end, fear or forward aggression will show. Likewise a more dominant dog that is continually beat down will no longer exibit forward dominance. DUHHHHHHH.....

Baseline measure yes, guarantee the dog is the most dominate dog to ever walk on four legs, well no that would be extreme and silly.

 

 

 

 

It´s not worth to argue - if Bubba would be right EVERY dog raised in the perfect surrounding would be able to become a member of "seal team 4.3" - no matter the genetics - this is nonsense.

Nature AND Nurture - whoever thinks different either didn´t raise dogs ( or kids ) or simply isn´t able to see the differences.

This is grate information so thanks a lot . Jenni ,susie as usual very knowledge .And thanks to everyone else for your opinion. Bubba sometimes you ramble and I get lost but I still appreciate your input . I am seen at 16days some pups more outgoing than others some quicker to there feet than others some rambling around the kitchen one not as confident to leave its security . It's very interesting to watch . I am very impressed by the 2females

The only way to draw conclusions about a litter of puppies is to start with birth and follow through to 18-24 months minimum. I have four of my litter of nine now at four years and have close contact with two more and they are still maturing and changing mentally and physically. Dogs mature at different rates and some don't come into their own until three to four years. I have experience with many of my litters from birth up to 6-8 months and that does not prove an accurate predictor either but that age is a much better predictor than the 8 week guessers can do. It is just a lot more convenient for most people to blame their dog's insecurities and lack of trust or respect for their owner on the dog rather than on themselves where the blame really belongs. So if the dog is not whatever they think they want him/her to be then it is faulty genetics and not operator error. Plenty of breeders have sent great pups out to homes and had them returned as a mess in two to three months and that is not due to genetics .. it is environment that is the most important factor in any dogs life and the owner and handler bears the responsibility and the credit or blame for providing what the dog needs not just what is convenient or least expensive if they want really great dogs and to realize the potential from their puppies.

Do people in America TALK to each other ? I only ask because my experience of pup predictions / litter sales over here has been that the breeder says something like this to the buyer:
" From what I observed of this litter so far (7 - 8 weeks), and based on my previous experience and/or Aptitude Testing run by me / brought in by me getting an independent assessor to test the pups, I would think this pup that you are buying is [very dominant / not very dominant / shows high activity levels which can be harnessed for sports / is a total wimp and will be just the pet dog you requested so long as you educate him/her carefully to avoid it showing the worst excesses of nervousness (etc)] but of course that likely result does depend on whether you do all I suggest in the contract in terms of taking the pup to Training Club ..."

I.e. recognising the nature v nurture element, discussing possible outcomes, trying to encourage and shape the way the pup is going to be raised in its new home. Surely that makes the process and what can alter about it clear; rather than "Here is the puppy you are buying; I think he is going to be the best thing since sliced bread / will win any competition / Show you care to enter him/her in."

Just asking !

Hundmutter, if you want the experience of an ignorant pet person and an actual backyard breeder (accidental litter, mom spayed afterwards), I'll tell you my first puppy buying experience.

Somebody I was in a budding relationship with was interested in getting a German shepherd dog, a female. We were eventually supposed to move in together, so I looked up puppies in my area on the AKC website. I went to the person's home after contacting them. The puppies were all black and red except for one. The guy asked if I wanted a boy or girl. I said I wanted a girl. He let all the girls out to roam free in their yard. Most weren't interested in me and ran off. One approached me immediately, and the sable female approached me eventually. I took pictures of them and went home. I showed the pictures to the other person and asked which they would like, and we eventually settled on the sable female. I went back, I bought her, and I took her home. (They charged more for her because of her color.) The breeder was there when I had questions and was a nice person to talk to, and I recently asked how the others were doing. One puppy, he said, was in New York doing very well.

It wasn't until after I had my puppy that I began researching everything there was to know about this dog and this dog breed which is something I suspect most buyers don't bother doing at all. (Ideally, it should be done beforehand, I know.) I'm happy to say I'm better educated now, but I still have a ways to go.

I've been involved with dogs ever since I was 2. Dogs where I live aren't seen as members of the family (in most homes) and they're kept outside. My family is no exception. My great uncle bred hunting dogs that, looking back on it now, were kept in very horrible conditions, but this was what I thought was normal (or even better since they had food and water and shelter which is better than the dogs that are kept outside in the rain and the heat). On my daily commute around town last year, I saw a puppy get adopted into a family raised outside, next to a busy street. I watched her grow up outside, very skinny, and eventually start walking with a limp. I assume somebody hit her with their car because once, I saw her walking into the street and somebody driving by actually purposefully swerved into the oncoming traffic lane in order to try to hit her. (I've also seen people purposefully swerve to try to hit cats in the street, too.) She was pregnant on her first heat by one of the other wandering dogs. She had eight puppies, four of which were stolen and likely put into dog fighting. Two were given away. Two were kept. I went and spoke to the owner about all this, and she happily told me how much she loved her dog and to look at the puppy lick her mother's ears (which were bloody), saying "look how much they love their mama!" After the puppies got three or four months old, they all vanished and that family has a new dog now.

Just a few weeks ago, I saw a child (maybe 8-11 years old) walking with his puppy (maybe 4-6 weeks) off leash down a sidewalk. The puppy caught wind of something and took off in the other direction. The boy chased him, caught him up by the hind leg, and carried him upside down like that as he continued on down the sidewalk.

I've confronted people like this before, but I've learned my lesson. One, the cops in this town don't care about the animals here, and two, it's perfectly legal to shoot and kill somebody on your property as long as you "feel threatened." Just two weeks ago, somebody I grew up with was stabbed more than fifteen times and beaten to death, and the person who did it got off on defense. How? My friend was going to pick up his things from his ex's house. He apparently "got rowdy," and so, they needed to defend themselves ... From somebody with no weapons.

Sorry. My rant is over. I got far away from my original point. Sorry again.

@Reilya. Hmm... Sounds like you are in Texas! 😱 Sorry for your loss of your friend, truly.

This pet person actually fell in love with a puppy picture, tricked her husband into wanting a second dog, then took her son on a trip almost across the country, where they barely could stuff the 9 week old pup into the pet travel bag, so he could fit under the seat between her feet on the flight home.

He was a spunky puppy and was human reared since 3-4 weeks due to his mom being emancipated. Now grown, he is very territorial at age three, and takes that job seriously. He often takes direction from Mojo but is calm and sweet, otherwise. He naturally wants to please (biddable), which is a good thing because he won't be forced to do anything if he doesn't want to do it, because of his size and power.

We inquired about his temperament and was assured he was outgoing in battle with his sibs and that he was a great napper. And we communicated that we wanted a big dog. He was the porker of two litters worth of eleven pups, total. He remains a great eater and is a superior cuddle-buddy in the napping department.

Reliya, lots of people - all over the world - have experiences such as you describe, and meet people who do not deserve to have dogs ! But I'm sorry, I don't really see the relevance to this thred with telling us about the ones you have come across ?
The thing about people who breed dogs, especially on a regular basis, and who claim to be able to pick the 'right' puppies for their buyers and what they want the dog to be able to do (sports, PP, LE, companion, agility, whatever) is really divorced from your BYB 'breeder' who let the pups and you pick each other, he didn't try to sell you a story with the dog, you don't mention if there was any sales contract, any guarantees on health or temperament etc. Contrast that with someone who breeds
regularly, relies on having a formal contract to try to obviate problems with buyers of pups, and who says - either because they genuinely believe it, or because they think it is what their customers want to hear - that this pup is more dominant, or less dominant in nature; has great potential for being worked, or shown, or competed with in IPO etc; is 'guaranteed' to be breedworthy enough to become the next generation of breeding stock. They may assert this on the basis of raising and observing a lot of litters, over time.  They may call someone, maybe another breeder, in to do formal Assessment Tests on their pups. Thousands of these transactions take place every day. All I have pointed out is that SOME of the issues around whether that puppy really does live up to expectations, or not, and what the new owner does to contribute to, or detract from those predictions, could be vastly improved by having sensible, detailed conversations, between breeder and buyer. Which don't always happen.
Frankly I wouldn't really expect that sort of detailed conversation to arise in the case of some BYB'er, with their maybe one, accidental litter; although yes, it would also be helpful if it did happen there too !