Qvido Vepeden progeny, health concerns ??? - Page 3

Yes Koots as well as the hocks and stifle motion. Looks very unstable, my current male does something like that but NOT as obvious. Looks loose or flexible?? Ugh and for that reason I started him on arth supplements. Now 6 yrs old but can see what is coming. No jumping for my boy from now on.

Really thought the obedience was top notch though and enjoyed watching video and want to thank whoever posted it. Know my training will NEVer BE THAT FINE tuned. Really admire all the work that has been put into this training and competing. BOL and thanks for sharing.

I don't care for the completely unnatural positioning that's been promoted in obedience, because I have concerns about the health of the dog's neck and spine as the dog ages. I believe the unnatural heeling style puts undue stress on the nerves in the cervical, lumbar and sacral sections of the spine, and wonder if this may eventually lead to damage to those nerves that can manifest as the dog toe-dragging in the rear while moving. The latter is what I see in the movement in this particular video; watch videos of the dog in motion in earlier events, and you can see the tendency develop more with each year.

This observation is NOT limited to this dog--nor am I implying that this dog has any form of congenital or heritable condition that is affecting the movement; it is my suspicion that the movement change is manufactured, at least in part, through what the dog is trained to do. Once you start looking for it, it becomes readily noticeable when watching any dog move, if the gait defect is present.

I am not all that thrilled with the new head way up, prancing, unnatural gait that is present in most of the heeling of competitive dogs in IGP. Don't mistake me, I initially was impressed by, and liked the look of the prancing-style of heeling, but then started to think about how it impacts the dog. Wonder where/when that trend started? At what point did some trainers/handlers get more points for such presentation, and then others copied the training methodology to achieve 'that look' and gait for the points? Also, like hexe asks, what physical effects will this heeling style have on dogs and their long-term health and joints? I want my dog to heel in correct position and with attention but at the same time I don't want this to screw up the dog in the long term.

Back to the original question of the post, I would be curious to know if the competitive training has affected the joint/back health of this dog, and if so, is this a case of something that would have occurred naturally had this dog not been trained like this?

Well no matter what type of venue these dogs perform and compete in they will always be at risk for injury while showing whether it be IPO, PSA, Obedience,Agility, on and on; even ball fetching but got to let them perform as they are working dogs, that is their passion and these guys are perfectionists. Both handlers and dogs. Love to watch the good ones show though to them its just the cats meow.  And I want to see a happy worker; and this guy seemed happy to me working his little heart out.  

Nans, consider this: The majority of people who train their dogs for competition obedience do so by teaching the dog the tasks and exercises as they will be performed when being judged--after all, why teach a behavior that is contrary to what the requirements call for, and risk the dog erring in which behavior it presents in a competition, right?

So we teach the dog to heel, with the dog in a traditional position: left side of the handler, generally with the area between the occipital junction of the dog's head and the dog's withers aligning with the left knee of the handler.

Now, add to this the now-fashionable teaching of the dog to keep its head turned slightly to the dog's right, and elevated so the dog is looking at the handler's face or shoulder area. The dog is taught to hold this head carriage both while moving in the heel, at all speeds, and while at rest while still in the heel position. The dog is ONLY worked on this movement when it is on the left side of the handler; as a result, there will eventually be uneven development in the musculature of the dog's left side when compared to that of his its right side, and there will be an uneven distribution of stress on the joints, tendons and nerves as well.

The position itself is unnatural, but at least if the dogs were trained to work in that position from either side of the handler, both sides of the dog's body would receive the same conditioning and stress, reducing the chances of injury to the joints, soft tissue and nerves resulting from uneven use. Repetitive stress injuries aren't limited to humans, but too often that is forgotten when it comes to our animals.

Setting up a dog to have RSI sometime in its life is like sending a dog down a field to do Agility or lure-coursing or anything else very active if you have not allowed the dog to 'warm up' first. Anybody suggested human athletes go into a competition with their muscles still cold would be roundly condemned; yet all the time we see people get their dogs straight out of their cars and into working mode. Sorry - one of my 'pet hates' !

Hexe: I am in favor of training from both sides of the dog, your right and your left; that un natural turning of the dogs head or looking up at the handler also keeps them from forging ahead which is something I would NEVER do with any german Shepherd as my current dog is now 6 years old and I CANNOT break him from forging ahead of me; puts me in a real spot. If you know what I mean. BUT those unnatural positions seem like they would put undue wear and tear on the animal particularly if you are talking a length of time in competition BUT how many dogs do you see competing at an older age these days, seems they show and win and retire them with a good name. I want my dogs to hold up their whole lives not just until 2 or 3 years old while they are hot.

Hund, definitely am a fan of warming up your dog just like you would a triathlon or long distance runner. YES competitors (sp) sorry; leave a half hour earlier so you have time to warm up your dogs. Thank you... for their sake.

Nans gsd
hexe as a vet should know physiology and effects on it better than anyone other, participating in this discussion, including me.
my take is not science based but just on point of logic - why one need to force the dog to act in not natural way, particularly if such action absolutely useless and not applicable in day by day life?
as for competing in field - it doesn't take long by itself. dog being screwed during hundreds of hours preping and polishing to perfection such useless performance.

Original question posted was about Qvido progeny and TEETH or GUM issues !!!
But I guess if you want to argue this as good of a place as any.