I think treat training is cruel. - Page 23

Jesse:
You asked me a few pages ago, why your 10 mo old will fight yo and not comply anymore during training.

hm, that wasn't my question. i already know why it can happen and how to deal with it in that circumstances.
what i'd asked is "what you will do, if that happen between you and your dog during the training process?"
the question did arise due to your enthusiastic promotion of marker and "all positive" methods of training. 
i'm not objecting to methods, preferred by someone but i was curious how would you apply of those methods in this situation.

Not sure what you mean with fighting but I never had a dog fight me during clicker training. However, what can happen is that you hit a roadblock and a dog may not know how to further to progress and stop working. That's when you stop. If a dog stops working for you than usually that means there is a road block and you simply stop for a while or do something different. It actually happens during very complex behaviors where you have to stop working the dog for a week and then go back and voila your dog has a whole new level of understanding. But I've never, ever ever ever had a dog fight me during a clicker session...

Valk says: 

....the question did arise due to your enthusiastic promotion of marker and "all positive" methods of training. 

Valk-

I see. I understand better what you were asking now. Still...

You know what I’m looking for now, don’t you?....the little emoji person that is slapping his own (my) forehead in frustration.

Here is the misunderstanding that I have tried to clear up and have said a million times:  Marker training is not the same thing as positive only training. Only in the learning stage is it positive.  It can be used to recondition an undesired behavior with correction markers too. It does not always have to be positive down the road....depending on the dog and behavior.

Apple: Do you think if you use the Premack principle of reinforcement, the dog is working for himself or the handler?

Prager; excellent question. Thank you!. the truth is I did not give to this much thought so I reserve the right to change my opinion. However, I know where you are going with it. IMO if Premack means doing something less desirable first in order to get to do something more desirable then the dog is working for itself. To me when I train a dog it is not important what I think but what the dog thinks. Thus I am talking about attitude and not about work performed. to me personally, it is not as important what work the dog performed for me what IMO is important what is in the dog's mind - his attitude- when he is performing the work.it is more important to me whY/ because I look at a dog more like a partner and not as a tool. If in his mind as a final product of the work is something more pleasant then in his mind then is working for himself even though the as a byproduct of such effort produced a work for me.
The alternative IMO is that the dog works for me and with me because his goals are the same as mine. That way there is no less desirable work which needs to be done first in order to get to what the dog wants all along. In other words when I teach the dog to work for me and with me, I am teaching the dog to enjoy the work itself for the purpose of it and also he wants to please me because he likes me to be pleased.

apple it would serve you well not to evaluate me. That is not a purpose fo this thread. Have you see me saying things like this: "You have totally shifted from your original point that "treat training is cruel" and either have a problem with reading comprehension or just are willing to absorb certain bits of information that you want to hear." Once you go there I lose interest to discuss any further points you make.
Ad Hominem attacks regardless of how thinly veiled are a sign of the defeat of person who made them.
If you do not understand something which I am saying then ask. Let's have a discussion. I am not here to have a hostile argument nor to stroke other people's ego. I am here to express what I think and discuss it. :)

Apple: Proven by published reports based on the experimental model using appropriate methodology. That is very different than Prager saying a dog is not working for the handler because the handler uses food and toys. His is just an opinion.

Prager Hans: So who is the dog working for if he will not work if you do not give him treat or play with toy. I do not need to read published reports of scientists who probably never even owned a dog. To me and to anybody of the appreciable ability of observation and critical thinking should see that the dog is working for itself if treats and toys are used.
BTW can you show me some "proven by published reports based on the experimental model using appropriate methodology" studies that do is not working for itself? I would like to read them.

EmoryG, if I believed you really thought dogs have such an intricate understanding of the human apology, especially some minutes post the event being apologised for, I would start to worry about you. Okay if admitting your errors out loud makes YOU feel better, but please don't contribute to the anthropomorphasising that goes on, by asking us to accept that your dogs are appeased by your apologies for some earlier-in-the-day teaching mistake you made when training them.

There is no way you can objectively determine if a dog is "working for you." That is not even something that is part of a dog's mindset because they don't have vocabulary. It is something you project onto your dogs because it supports your training beliefs. How is using the Premack principle any different than reinforcing with food or a toy? The goal is for the dog to reliably respond to obedience commands, which are learned behaviors. Learning is enhanced via positive reinforcement and the stronger the reinforcer the faster and better the dog learns.

So if a dog is sleeping at your feet, is he seeking your company for himself, or is he being altruistic and blessing you with his presence?

Of course a dog works for himself!!

And why should the dog not get what he wants out of a working relationship with his master? Is he merely a slave?
I can just imagine a video of the op's dog he trains for obedience, or anything, other than biting while in prey drive, that is not allowed to work for it's self.

Actually, dogs are very manipulative which says to me they know how to get what they want and are working for themselves. Being reinforced with food, toys, praise or petting has nothing to do with the issue.