If I may ask a question - Page 2

GK1,
The toy is used to train the behavior and then it is faded out so a handler isn't carrying a toy around in order to get a dog to have a focused heel. Plus there are times you want a focused heel and other times you don't, but it is better if the dog has been taught to do both. If I am just walking my dog, I don't want him at heel. Heel can be out in front. This clarifies to the dog the difference between a focus heel and just walking.

The least thing I needed was the motivation to eat (food drive).  Almost never used in my training.  An exception was when a department requested food reinforcement for their detection dogs.  The most desirable quality was that to hunt.  The desire to hunt was used extensively in locating suspects, or evidence and property of crimes.  For dogs tasked with physical apprehension, the desire to dominate is what takes the police dog to the next level. 

Apple, the only way I was able to consistently have police dogs release suspects on the streets was by reinforcing his release with another bite in training.  Even then, the predictive powers of fear conditioning had to be utilized for unexpected events such as retaliatory bites.  The toy will carry you a long way in training and with weaker dogs on the real bite.

 

 

Emoryg said The toy will carry you a long way in training and with weaker dogs on the real bite. 

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By the way a weaker dog means weak no matter what way you look at it imo.

Imo a weaker dog should not be taught, allowed to bite. For one it is missing for me the number 1genetic trait nerve and ability to over comes stress. And if that is the case his balance is off. Out of every thing a dog could be missing that is the one I would not expect.

Could the above statements be clarified. I don't follow what they mean.

if redirecting to a toy can get a “weaker” dog to release a suspect, is the toy reward thereby more valuable than the apprehended suspect? seems back assward. but plausible I suppose.

again, I don't see the need for toys in the protection equation certainly not to trigger aggression against human opponent. for polishing obedience sure.

GK1. I can see use of a toy for many reasons in training. Not to used to help a weaker dog in any biting situation.one would wonder why so many police dogs can't out or even worse bite without reason could it be because they are weaker than they should be.

I never said anything about redirecting to a toy to get a dog to out or using a toy to trigger aggression. The toy is used to teach controlled aggression. In PSA decoys can use toys to try to get a dog to bite when he is not supposed to. Biting when the dog is not supposed to is immediate DQ. The toy is used because the dog is so motivated to bite the decoy so you use it by teaching the dog you bite what I tell you to bite and who I tell you to bite. It also has nothing to do with the out except that teaching the dog as a pup to out the toy made outing the decoy totally conflict free and consistent. PSA demands that the dog has a lot of control and at the same time, a lot of pressure is put on the dog in certain scenarios and you can't pattern train for it because the scenarios are different at different trials and new ones are regularly being created. Part of the sport is counter intuitive to the extent that if you are heeling and several people are walking beside you antagonizing the dog and he is not allowed to bite, in real life that doesn't seem to make sense. But because it is about controlled aggression, the dogs learns just as strongly when to bite and when not to bite and that can transfer to situations outside the sport.

GK1
the reverse applies too..handler must have sufficient intelligence, ability to bond be loyal etc...

nope. you can be most experienced handler/trainer but if dog has too much selfindependence and do not tend to cooperate - nothing can be done. i have seen such dogs, overall very good, strong dogs but was writen off due to this issue, which brings unreliability in obedience of those dogs in work.
everything else (drives, temperament) should be just indicators to dog's suitability for certain venue of application, which is pretty wide for GSD breed (well, at least theoreticaly :)

if a dog is working in defense or civil or whatever one would want to call it, you will never be able to rederect the dog with a toy, because the toy will not trigger any agression response from the dog, maybe frustration if dog has extreme prey/posession

so if the dog goes for the toy, that dog is at that point ALLWAYS in prey, dog in agression will most likely bite it when offered, spit it and redirect at the person

Preydrive comes in many shapes and formes, again different terms can and will be thrown at it

there is dogs that will chase only if object is moving(prey), but loose interest when stops moving, then there is dogs that will search for still object but not crazy to hold on when found(hunt), then there are dogs that have high posession, will search and not wanting to give up(posession)what they found,and then there are dogs with high posession mainly that will grab what is in front of them, hold on like crazy, but not hunt or search for it at all(typically seen in the pitbull X Labrador crosses we see offered in LE

for LE I would like a good mix of civil agression, prey/hunt and posession, for a PP dog, good civil agression, low prey/posession  and for a sport dog higher prey, medium posession and good level of civil/sharpness, the last is lacking in lots of todays sportdogs, which we can see in in bark/hold, guarding and response time in escape 

In training what I have described, the decoy is simply on the field a good distance from the dog and is passive. You don't introduce this technique when trying to elicit prey or defense because you would be working against yourself. It is hard enough to get a good dog to ignore the decoy and take the toy before he gets to go directly for the decoy. Actually you don't know what drive the dog is in because each dog is different. In the scenario I am describing, there is no movement from the decoy until the dog is sent and then the decoy comes at the dog yelling aggressively at him with a clatter stick and hits the dog with it. The decoy is clearly visible so there is no hunt. My dog has some possessiveness but it is not extreme. He has simply learned to enjoy biting and fighting the decoy. The suit is a cue, but I am confident the dog would bite when sent on someone with no suit. We use a competition suit and the dog sees it as an extension of the decoy and not a giant sleeve because he can feel the person's muscles and tendons moving through the suit.