2 e-collars does not equal abuse........ - Page 8

All those abusive techniques and e-collars as well are not the only way to get a good dog trained. If the type of training you are using becomes abusive in order to get a more impressive performance then perhaps you should ask yourself why YOU want it so bad. The dog certainly doesnt care about getting points.....they only want to work. Dont give me any BS about an over the top dog either, after all...... we collectively made them that way. Now those dogs are often forced to endure our vanity and selfishness in the name of points, ribbons, trophys and bragging rights. I hope everyone is proud of themselves.

AS for video, I don't plan on my dog biting anyone outside of training anytime soon. Every single dog bite, short of someone jumping your fence or breaking into your house is totally preventable. The very slight chance of that happening is why I have a $1,000,000 homeowner policy.

Wow, this is the biggest load of BS to date - sorry but offense intended!

"I came to actively participate in Schutzhund late in my dog career, having only admired and read about it before, and a lot of these clapped-to-your-leg-gazing-upwards dogs are, to someone who knows dogs, terrified of making any possible move out of line."

What a load of crap.  Here are a few pics of my "clapped-to-your-leg-gazing-upwards" dog - and she was trained to heel using hotdogs and a ball!  She also has been trained with an Ecollar and the judge’s comments during her BH critique included "amazing relationship," awesome bond," "true joy in the work," "a very nice young bitch with loads of attitude.” (USA Judge Frank Phillips)

Jeez, you should stick to writing poetry, the prose regarding Ecollar mis-use is just over the top.  Further more you obviously have no idea about Schutzhund dog training.  The last thing you are going to get when using overly compulsive methods would be the heeling you just described!  Sorry, but i can't let such misinformation pass.  If you don't like the collars fine, disagree with their use, well everyone is entitled to an opinion - but don't come here and talk about things which you obviously have no understanding of and purport to be someone who knows dogs as you clearly don't!

-Calvin

(All pictures from her BH)

Good post and VERY, VERY nice pictures.

Those are pictures of a very good bond and a very nice looking team.

Keep it up.

"AS for video, I don't plan on my dog biting anyone outside of training anytime soon. Every single dog bite, short of someone jumping your fence or breaking into your house is totally preventable. The very slight chance of that happening is why I have a $1,000,000 homeowner policy. " GARD

Gard: It actually doesn't have to be a dog bite and  no one said incidents involving our dogs were not preventable, there are these things called "accidents" and please don't anyone be so stupid or so arrogant as to say it couldn't happen to you.  While the insurance is absoloutly a necessity and should be carried by every single person who owns a dog, (I carry a $5,000,000 Umbrella policy over and above my homeowners liability limit)  insurance is not the issue and the least of your worries in the event of an incident involving your dog except  the fact that should videos surface in the course of investigating a claim, good luck keeping your current carrier and beyond that, finding any other carrier who will cover you as long as you own the dogs.  What I am very concerned about in addition to having a lawsuit jacked up and losing liability coverage are the "dangerous" dog laws and even the "potentially dangerous" dog laws that are now on the books in just about every city in the USA. 

Everyone must way the risks (or lack there of) and come to their own conclusions of whether or not they want to publish grip work videos on the internet.  For me, keeping my dogs safe, AND keeping my insurance intact  is a lot more important than sharing videos of my dogs grip work with my buddies. 

But I digress and apologize for veering so far off topic.  Calvin, I agree with GARD, excellent post and what a nice dog!


 

 Legal definition of torture in USA: 

"Physical pain amounting to torture must be equivalent in intensity to the pain accompanying serious physical injury, such as organ failure, impairment of bodily function, or even death. For purely mental pain or suffering to amount to torture (under U.S. law), it must result in significant psychological harm of significant duration, e.g., lasting for months or even years. . . . We conclude that the statute, taken as a whole, makes plain that it prohibits only extreme acts.''

No Kidding you all think this is not abusive LOL..If you can do that to human and think it's right...

So go on and use whatever you like..it's only dogs and they can't talk!! So let's just kick their but in the name of sport and if they don't respond or fail to do what's intended..let's just shoot them..(you all have a guns too  so it's pretty easy!). 

I do think it's abusive..and when you'll realize it..you will have to live with the fact that you have abused you so beloved dogs like you all say...

( I'm not against e-collar..they do have a purpose and are useful when use in a correct way)
 

Sue, EXCELLENT POST. I would seriously suggest that people NOT throw their protection video, on Youtube, here, or where it is available to the public, and remove any that is on line. Period. I would not even make public that there is any existant video at all. Note: This is my personal opinion and not legal advice.

Pay attention to what I wrote.  You have a lovely working dog; your pictures are nice.  But because YOUR dog is fine doesn't mean that there aren't others out there that are not.  You can't possibly deny that - I've seen them.  Everybody sees them.  You admitted yourself you trained her to heel with hot dogs and a ball.  Well, I see people train every week yes, with a ball, but if the dog turns its gaze AT ALL away while heeling, it's zapped.  Dog is absolutely locked on to the handler's face.  Locked.  Usually a second person is manning the remote for the collar, thus freeing the handler.  The moment the dog turns even the littlest bit - zap.  You use hot dogs.  Others start with hot dogs and quickly progress to fine-tuning with the e-collar.  Some get carried away.  Fact, whether you like it or not.

Over the past year I've seen just so many people use them, most with good results but some with exactly the results I've stated.  Deny all you want.  I know how to use an e-collar.  You say you do, too.  Well, that's great.  But you totally missed the point of this entire thread which has REPEATEDLY stated that many do not know how to use them properly.  That's a fact.  You can call it bullshit til the cows come home but that won't make it untrue.

I'm glad you have a nice dog.  But none of us do the sport any good unless we aren't afraid to defend our legitimate use of e-collars to the public while not ignoring their mis-use and pretending it doesn't happen, but calling it out when we see it.

The most egregious use I've seen was a marvelous SchHI dog who it was thought just wasn't retrieving fast enough and they obviously didn't use the collar correctly since the dog obviously didn't understand why he was being shocked for retrieving.  Very confused dog due to poor e-collar use.  I can guarantee you these people would never EVER post photos of that dog on here.  They sure wouldn't look anything like your photos.

To their credit, they stopped that and are now building the dog back up - his protection never suffered and he's a great dog, but it sure set them back in obedience.  THEIR mistake, not the dog's, not the e-collar.

 

Tess, you are one step away from suggesting an outright ban on the devices, which I will suggest (in my opinion) is your true intent and goal. 

 

Assuming this is correct, it is people who want to ban every "bad" thing from the world in the hopes that it then will be a "nice" place, without hurt, pain, who are living in a dream world.  The same idiots you mentioned who screwed up their retrieve with an ecollar would have messed it up 10 years ago with a couple of prong collars and some flexi-leads.  Those a-holes 10 years before that would have screwed it up with a choke chain and a rubber hose.  The point being that we cannot legislate a "safe" world because simply taking the "bad" things away, doesn't address the real problem.  The people misusing the equipment are the problem and no one (including you, as you make no mention of dealing directly with these "handlers") wants to address that.  So, what do people unwilling to address the source of the problem do?  They decide the next best way to handle the situation is to ban “things”, ban the collars, regulate the "professionals" can use them, pass "feel-good" laws, require licensing and oversight by the government  -- all to assuage guilty feelings about not having the character or courage to address the real source of the problem.  Who cares if then the world reverts back to older, less efficient equipment that can cause not just as much pain and confusion, but physical trauma as well...  But wait, then we can ban dog training right?  Who really needs it?  The working dogs we rely on will just pop forth from the womb with no selective breeding, right?  Oh, maybe we'll leave stewardship of the breed to the "professionals" like the government or the police - they sure set an awesome record or not screwing things up or using abusing, cruel and inhuman methods to achieve their ends.  Come on an wake up.  You are fighting (even if you can't recognize you true position yet) to take away something that the vast majority of people (outside of your club apparently) use effectively and due to it efficiency, USE LESS than any other method.  Only someone willing to stick their head in the sand would think they can make the world a better place by removing inanimate objects and not by dealing with directly with the people who abuse them.

-Calvin

 

Yea Calvin, well said!

So I guess I missed the whole point too because when I read the thread I believe the point of the original poster and his  thread was 2 e-collars (and specifically one on a flank strap)  do not necessarily mean a dog is being abused.  No one here has denied there are assholes who misuse e-collars, just as there are assholes who misuse many tools and fuck up their dogs. 

As far as heeling and when the dog looks away he is corrected........of course he is corrected. Some use an ecollar, some use a leash pop.  Either tool can be abused.