Leaking Drive - Page 4

Christine,
Excellent post.  Cliff, I do agree as usual.
I also had a dog that was a "screamer" and it certainly was genetic.  The dog was a fantastic tracking dog, super high prey, extremely focused OB but would vocalize while heeling and being looked on in focus on my face.  Her bite work was exceptional and there was no screaming in the bite work.  A super sound, great temperament, super social, but would scream at times.  If you pushed a broom past her, she would scream and chase it. It was not that big of a deal, but could be annoying at times.  Extremely calm in the house, just turned on at training time for the most part.  Her positives sure outweighed any negatives.  My current male, doesn't leak drive at all, quite the opposite.  He will contain himself and remain extremely focused on the task at hand even under intense stress.  The most I may get is some excitement and his body shaking to go, when put in extreme situations.  Also a high prey drive dog, but balanced and certainly very civil.   He will "clack" his teeth when guarding, but to me that is not that big of a deal either in regards to the total package of the dog.  I will get a pup from a near repeat breeding of this dog, even though he "clacks" his teeth when guarding.  You really need to look at the overall dog and what the behavior is and it's impact on the dog's temperament and working ability. Excellent

There are many behaviors that I find less desirable than "screaming" or vocalizing.  For example, I don't like dogs that spin.  For me spinning is more of an issue.  Or, as mentioned earlier when a newbie gets a dog and thinks the spinning during a hold and bark means "high drive," while at home the dog dives under the bed and screams and whimpers during a thunder storm.  Then the newbie breeds the dog.  Knowing the original breeder I'm sure the explanation for the behavior is all environmental and nothing to do with genetics.  Once again it's all that "sport" training and using crates that causes all of these "behavioral" issues. 

Leaking drive is an issue; and it can be either genetic, poor training or most likely a combination of both.  I see it in sport dogs and I see it a lot in working Police dogs.  If it is just during an OB phase as Christine and I have both experienced, I can live with it.   I have a major issue with dogs that can not contain themselves or "cap" in bite work.   For what I do, that is a serious liability and a real training concern.  Our dogs have to be quite and steady before being sent into buildings or while waiting to go in while flash bangs are deployed.  Spinning or screaming is out of the question and can not be tolerated, whether it is genetic or environmental.  There are many ways a dog can leak drive, and they all use energy and make training a little more difficult.  It needs to be addressed for each dog and each situation.  I'd take that screaming dog of mine again any day, and I can certainly tolerate Boomer's  occasional teeth clapping.  As long as the dog is not so frantic or spun up that it can't work or focus, has precision and can hear me over the vocalizations during OB, I'm ok with it. 

Never mind. Post was edited. 

double post

VKGSD's,
An excellent description of a high drive dog, that was in drive and would vocalize to retrieve.   I most certainly agree that it wasn't the crate that caused or created the issue.  It's just in the dog and some dogs need to "let it out" when excited.

Jenni,
I have to post in short segments or it get's deleted as I type.  If I go to long, what ever "the bug" is, jumbles and deletes my sentences.  This wacky forum problem is probably a good thing, it frustrates me to much to post any long responses and I'm sure that makes a lot of people happy.

I see different behaviors as less desirable than others.  IMHO, spinning is more of an issue.  Since I do a lot of bite work, and a lot of OB I put more emphasis on "capping" in bite work.  I realize both are important but the spinning drives me nuts and it not as prevalent in OB by dogs that spin. 

I could be wrong, but seems Koach was asking about dogs being bred which are on the extreme end of "leaking drive" during protection, not just letting off steam.

Yes, I see, Jim. That's why I deleted my post when you fixed yours and it was much more clear. Leaking is leaking...some forms are more hazardous in some venues than in others, none are desirable. Agreed. 

In general, my summary of my opinion on it, not that anyone cares about my opinion, is that training doesn't create it in a dog who doesn't have the genetic predisposition in the first place, but there is definitely a way to handle (or not handle) a dog predisposed to the behavior that can dampen or exacerbate the problem. 

Joan, I thought so, too. That's kind of why I mentioned different manners of keeping the dogs and how they may affect them. I *think* Koach was asking about true, genetic leakers, not a "normal" dog letting off some steam from time to time. For me, I guess the deciding factor would center around ability to focus on the task at hand. 

Joan,
I could be wrong but I thought you had answered that?  Was the thread supposed to end there? 

Christine, I don't see you as the voice of dissension at all. I think your post made perfect sense- breeding will always be the ultimate game of compromise and compatibility and no single factor determines the best course. 

Jim, don't make me laugh :-)