Leaking Drive - Page 3

I agree that raising them like Cliff illustrated won't prevent it if it's a genetic, nerve-based issue. When it's not a true screamer, and just a dog who's been kept frustrated it's whole life, with no outlet, I think it can make a practical difference from a handing aspect. The genetics, of course, will always be the same. 

When I say "punish" I mean the way people will just keep them locked in a kennel away from the house, where no one can hear them, or keep them crated with bark collars on (yes, I know of someone who kept large numbers of dogs in a basement w/bark collars 24/7). They're essentially punishing the dog for being the way they were bred to be. This applies to all sorts of things, not just screamers. Unbalanced, extremely driven dogs, etc. You're right; when dogs are that bad, they're often quite unaware and actual correction for the behavior may have little to no effect anyway. We're on the same page. I should've qualified what I meant by "punish." This is how we end up with dogs that aren't liveable- the people breeding them often don't live with them and ignorance is bliss...if they can't hear them screaming day and night, no harm, no foul. 

Just to make sure everyone is on the same page, will someone post a video of a screamer doing its thing?
 

Sitasmom, that would be like posting a video of a compulsive barker to see what one looks like.. Too many variables to video a behavior out of context for an accurate demonstration.

I'll be the dissenting voice. I have had 2 "screamers" -- the first was my girl Frost, born in 1994 - http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/dog.html?id=473046-frostbite-von-pantara

No Fero or T litter behind her! I was told the screaming came down from her father's side, through Donn (http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/dog.html?id=3055-donn-vom-dreidorfereck). She was extremely smart and extremely high drive--she'd scream at every stimulation. It wasn't because of drive building--it was just part of who she was. If I was inside the house, even when she was 10 years old, if I said, "Squirrel?" to her, she'd charge to the door, then out the door, to the nearest tree, looking for squirrels--screaming the whole time. Her nerves were basically sound, but could have been a bit more steady.

Was it annoying? YES. So much so. She had one litter, out of a Nessel son, and both the pups also screamed--the female more than the male. Again, no Fero or T litter. The female was very strong in the work, a bit more civil and sharp than the male, also very good nerves. But perhaps a bit too edgy for my ideal--she wasn't sharp off the field, but definitely sharp on the field.

The other was my Ashen (http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/dog.html?id=473053-blackthorns-ashen-2001-usa-national-schh3-hot-champion). He was not a screamer in the bitework, but he whined/vocalized in obedience. Anytime he was in conflict between drive and impulse control. He did not scream in bitework, nor in tracking. His prey drive was extremely high, as was his fight drive. I wouldn't say he was a civil dog, but he wasn't worried about equipment and would certainly bite someone if they wanted him to. :) He never would settle in the house, even as an 11 year old. He wasn't hyper--just busy. If I ignored him too long, he'd start playing ball with the sofa (which meant "losing" his ball under the sofa and then pushing the sofa all over the room to get it back). He wasn't the prettiest dog, but I miss him badly. Big boy, 92 pounds working weight, sound temperament, *always* on the go. He was only bred to one bitch, but produced 5 puppies working in SAR. Once came off the obedience field at a trial in NJ after he whined and barked throughout a routine (he'd scream on every recall and retrieve and go out, and if it was a "bad" day, bark while waiting in basic position)--I think I was getting a qualifying score for the Nationals--and had someone shout out, "I have a bitch I'd like to breed to him.... need to add some drive.... She's a malinois!" It was a joke, but yeah, he was that high drive. And, generally, clear headed. Of his kids (out of a Yoschy g-daughter, even), some are "leaky" and some aren't--some with whining/screaming, some with barking--but, for the most part, the bitch he was bred to reduced the leakiness and increased the general capacity to cap drive and clearly transmit drive into action.

So, yes, I'd breed a "leaky" dog to the right partner--depending, of course, on the dog, the other elements of the dog's temperament, the dog's nerves in general, the nerves in bitework, etc etc etc.

Christine

I've trained and lived with a dog that leaks.  I wouldn't call him a screamer, though I think he could easily be that if kept crated 24/7 except for a bit of work/exercise time.  The main thing is he gives a wail when you give a retrieve command.  I trained a totally motivational retrieve, no force/pressure.  His new owner has added some force to the retrieve but he yelled at the command when I had him.  He doesn't teeth chatter or bark/scream during other stuff or do that sort of panting drive leak, just that scream when you give the retrieve commands.  He LOVES to retrieve!  I did struggle with his long down once he moved on from the BH and had to watch other dogs retrieve, lol.  Not sure if this has anything to do with it, but he is also the fastest GSD in flyball ever so he has quite a strong affinity for running out and coming back :)  I never keep a dog crated 24/7 so he had plenty of freedom and space growing up and plenty of outlets for energy, time to interact with other dogs, etc.  I use crates for house training and young puppies earning their freedom, but beyond that my dogs are usually crated while we are actually at training or an event, in transit, or occasionally at home.  Also I wouldn't necessarily label this dog "over the top" drive either. Sure he has plenty of drive for IPO and just about any sport but not "extreme". I would call him lower threshold.  I struggled with his tracking foundation because as a youngster he'd get distracted by a loose leaf blowing down the track or something like that (now he has two IPO tracking scores over 95 and qualified for the WDC at age 3).  I wouldn't say it's a nerve issue either.  He's not the toughest, hardest dog in IPO but I never got the impression that he didn't have decent nerve.  Aside from his IPO3, I personally trained and titled him in several other venues before he was sold, he was always very safe and social with people and little kids, actually more social than I like for a GSD.  I don't really know why he screams during the retrieve, I guess he just wants it SO bad and can't handle it, lol!  We did do a lot of impulse control and focus work when he was a baby.  I don't "put up" puppies, they start obedience and manners day 1 with me (I know there are differing theories on this, but this is how *I* raise and train my dogs).  He did all the pet stuff like AKC STAR, CGC with no problems.  Just screams when you say "brrrrrring!"

~~There are people who actually love that craziness, so it is being bred for on purpose.

exactly, joanro :)   newbies especially, are easily fooled by the dog that comes screaming out of the car/truck, tearing up the soil & acting like it
wants to get everything, but when it actually comes down to doing the work, very often these dogs have expired themselves by leaking, their
grips are erratic & shallow & in general a huge disappointment to folks who see them for what they are.  the inexperienced see this leaking as
"over-the-top" drives, "ball crazy"  etc etc etc.  the veterans know that they are all show & no go :(  an unpredictable dog that cannot be capped
& very often is dismissed for being out of control.  i am speaking of the genetic leak here.
in regards to the faulty training leak (from what i have seen)  these dogs have gotten away with murder & been rewarded for it.  the dog comes
onto the field completely overloaded, followed by an incompetent, weak handler who tries in vain to control the dog.  eventually the handler is
so worn out from fighting the dog that they attempt the excercises (out of control) the dog gets the bite, tug, whatever and runs off the field after
being rewarded for bad behavior.  these folks go thru dog after dog after dog with the same problems.  if a dog is never taught to discipline himself,
he will be a brat & do whatever he pleases to get his way.  capping is mental as far as i am concerned.  if you don't have that mental connection
with your dog, chances are his character is stronger than yours and you will never have control of him.  so in effect, the faulty training leak is a
combination of mismatched dog & handler.  the handler would be far more successful with a handler sensitive dog who is happy to please & happy
in the work.
i know of one handler in particular who is always fooled by "over the top" drives and has had several dogs......all out of control.  two of them were
very dominant dogs, aggressive & way too much dog for this individual.  the results were disastrous.  the others were a matter of letting the dog
be a brat & excusing it by calling it a high drive dog.  these dogs might have been salvaged by simply not receiving a reward for bad behavior, but
when this behavior becomes a habit, it takes an exceptional & experienced handler to correct.  btw, joanro, this person looks for those dogs that
have been bred that way ;)

pjp

As to Screamers, Many feel Fero created Screamers. I had a Fero grandson that was a screamer. You just need to know how to handle and train them. My Axel Leaked drive on the field (Troll v.Haus Milinda X KNPV) Very high pray drive Solid hard grips fast on the field and in the work loveable dog off the field and in the public. Yes it took some work and if i had been more experienced with that drive it would of been less work but i learned alot. It was genetic and I line breed him (2X3 Troll v.h. Milinda) The litter produced some very exceptional dogs all are in working homes doing S&R Schutzhund and police work. One has to evaluate the individual dog and there dominate genetics thru work and observation to blanket say screamer should not be bred shows a lack of depth in experience with the dogs in question.

To blanket say screamers should not be bred could also indicate being objective when evaluating the individuals in question.

PJP, very well worded, especially with regard to "gotten away with murder and been rewarded for it. I had an experience JUST like that- sport home, no discipline (literally never heard the word 'no'), all rewards were in the form of a bite, crated constantly (so much so that food intake has increased 5x since the dog's been out of that situation, and dog is lean). Go figure, we got a mouthy brat who feels she has the right to do whatever she pleases, and correct you if need be, for not satisfying her every whim, instantly. A year of common sense handling fixed this right up. Dog is genetically fine. When common sense handling won't fix it (and I mean fix it, not mask it), it's genetic. I've seen a couple people like you mention- the revolving door folks who do the same thing over and over and surprise! The same thing happens. Out of control is easily mistaken for high drive in many circles.

VKGSDs, interesting post. I haven't seen that at all (yet) w/the half siblings. They're 17 mos. Nothing like that, as far as I've heard. If anything, criticism has been too quiet, not enough enthusiasm, as a few have tended to conserve energy until decoy, tug, ball, rag, whatever is close enough that they have a prayer of getting it.I'm not complaining, as my goal with that breeding was to come away a bit from the previous breeding that had produced dogs just bordering "too much."  There were 2 in the litter that this was mentioned with. The decoys wanted them to go apeshit from the second they got on the field, and they're just not that way. I just sold one of the ones I kept from that litter to a home with an autistic child who escapes (master locksmith at 4yrs old). They need a protection, tracking, and super stable child's dog all in one and he fit the bill after several meetings/tests. Time will tell, I suppose. 

I have to say here that I appreciate the time people like ziegenfarm and VKGSDs and Blackthorn (and everyone else, just pointing out the 3 long posts in this thread) put forth in explaining minute idiosyncrasies in dogs they've raised or owned. It really does help put puzzle pieces together for those of us who are learning what different lines bring in certain combinations. 

Just like show dogs coming off during stick hits don,t mean there not all that way!