Kirschental/Grafental Breedings - Page 1

Hello all, I know there has been many discussions on Show/working crosses. For the most post from reading it seems as if this type of breeding is a "no no." I have noticed however some top kennels have been doing show/working crosses for a while such as two notable kennels; kirschental and Grafental. If top kennels are doing this and still producing great puppies why is this such a bad thing? I personally like west german showline/east german crosses. Any input?

I also prefer these crosses just because, simply put, I want the best of both worlds. I know some will say you'll be bringing ugly to your show lines and lesser drives to your working lines but, I think, like anything else, with the right combinations and attention to these details when utilizing proper breeding stock, you could quite possibly end up with that "golden middle" some of us are striving for. I want a beautiful dog that can do the job.

I personally feel that east german dogs are far from ugly. Most receive kkl1 V ratings and 'a' normal hips. They just come in darker colors. I feel that east german lines compliment wg showlines very well and can add some much need genetic diversity back to them and also improve pigment and bone.

I think the ones who say it is a "no no" are full of crap. If you have 2 GSD's to die for in every aspect, why not breed them? That is the only way you are going to find out what will be produced. Regerdless of lines, linebreeding or total outcross. Sometimes a total outcross produces a super litter, sometimes a linebreeding produces crap. No way to tell until you do it. I am starting to see a lot of dogs I really like, that are a mix of work/show, Czech/W German, DDR/Czech, American/anything. The more I know about lines, what they are and where they come from, the more I see this is pretty common. People who state otherwise or say it is a bad practice are fooling themselves.

Great point 4pack. I have always like show/working crosses since I got my first german lined shepherd. Her name is Kora spaidz vom germelhaus. She was a show/east~west working cross. She had a super temperament and she had amazing pigment and she was just an all around great dog. I was told however that one reason working/show lines shouldnt be crossed was because you never knew what would turn out and the litter could and would be full of everything. There would be some pups who looked like show dogs others who looked like working dogs some with great working ability and others that were show quality and then some that just were too mixed between the two that at best they would be pets. I personally think that is how a litter should be. A great mix or potentials. And I was told "From a marketing standpoint you will find people want the purity, and anything else is a pretty hard sell. The crosses are not nearly so sought-after as the straight-bred, regardless of how good the lines are.

I'm fairly new to this site, and prior to coming here, I was just familiar with American showlines. What I've observed from the pictures I've seen, which are mostly of German show lines, the dogs almost look like they've been stamped from a cookie-cutter. They are all pretty much the same colour, have a slight to moderate curve in their top line, and larger heads than the American dogs. And if you research the pedigrees, the same dogs come up time and again (Ursus, Yasko, etc.) (Mind, it's no different with the American dogs, that's for sure!) Genetically speaking (and I do have a degree in biology) diversity is a good thing, and can only strengthen the breed. But as gimme10 says above, you will see much more diversity with a cross, so if that's not what you are looking for, don't do it. Judges in the show ring are used to seeing conformity, and often will balk at something that's different, even if it IS according to the breed standard. Jimmy Moses, Dallas's handler, said Dallas sometimes got faulted on his head, which was a nice, very masculine CORRECT head. The show judges were used to seeing the snippy, almost collie-like head that's been bred into the American dogs in recent years, therefore though Dallas's head was wrong.

A word of caution. Most people know far less than they think. While GSD's as a breed are wonderful, most are not breedworthy. Breedworthiness can be quantified by the contribution that an animal is likely to make to the breed. Number of offspring is not a valid contribution to any breed. As humans we breed animals for our own selfish reasons, and so the responsibility rests upon us to be diligent in using our position of power for the good of the breed. While I do not know enough about Grafental to comment, I consider Kirschental to be the standard by which all GSD breeders ought to be measured. Karl Fuller is a lifetime veteran breeder, exhibitor, and professional sheep herder. He has produced top VA dogs as well as BSP competitors and working stock using much of the same bloodlines. The breeding choices that he has made have been carefully planned out with specific goals and paths in mind. He has used top V and VA studs of sound working character on his herding line bitches with considerable success. He has also brought in top sport blood to improve hardness. It should be considered that Karl Fuller has crafted his female line over the years to be what it is today. The average working line female bred to a top conformation stud is unlikely to produce either good structure or top working ability. In light of the uncertainty regarding the outcome of such breedings many are rightly cautious. However, I applaud anyone who with careful consideration and an objective understanding of their females breeding characteristics takes the step to breed dogs of true GSD structure and working ability. Best Wishes, Jonah

Sunsilver, I have found your comments especially regarding American herding to be interesting and informative. Thank you. Regarding the Am judges faulting Dallas on his superior head, I believe this demonstrates the idiocy of the multi breed shows and the insular arrogance of the AKC/GSDCA in reliance upon judges lacking in the depth of knowledge to correctly judge the breed. Regarding genetic diversity, it is counter to the purpose of the breeder which is to produce consistent type and quality. Best Wishes, Jonah

If you are a breeder who breeds for color and conformation then you should not cross. If you are a breeder who breeds to improve the breed then it is ok.

I understand the issues and problems with the AKC bred shepherd but I applaud that community for their acceptance of the color variations in the show ring. In the AKC style you will dogs that are all black, sable, bicolors, and blanket saddle marked dogs all competing in shows and they is no color favoritism. As far the wg showlines i just feel they are undergoing a genetic depression because of so much line breeding. I feel like adding East german lines will add a sort of hybrid vigor. I think in any breeding it should be planned out carefully no matter if the cross is pure working or pure show or a combination.