Drives - misunderstood term - Page 1

Don Corleone _ Bon giorno . Chiamo / Io sono Ricardo . Come sta? Drive as I stated is a very limited term at best descript . I do not mean to heckle people but to aid those to a different way of understanding .I have done Sch .. that was my rootsyears ago . But first .. even within those circles .. many talk about fight drive ? I question, and so some others if it even exists . Why .. All animals , even people are predisposed to self preservation . As bruce lee would say " the best way to win a fight' .. don't fight " and the best way to handle a punch " , don't be there when it gets there" ! So why on earth would a canine endanger itself just to fight . So IMO there really is more that goes on here and the term fight drive falls short .[ and many can't even dfine it or agree about it] I know it is desrcipt of a starting pointto an observation . but does one want to settle for that? now I had a friend with a canine sent to dog onto a sleeve of a fleeing helper . he said he had dog had great prey drive . but he was locked into his thinking .. prey is this and defense is that .he could not see in the dog , although he chased the decoy the dog was weak ! .. when the sleeve was held away from the body and low [ decoy fleeing away ] .. he bit hard and fast .. but when the dog was sent onto the helper [ fleeing ] and the sleeve was held into the body and higher up .. the dog had less of a grip , eyes blinking , tried to pull away from the helper and he slid a bit down the sleeve . So -=- prey drive you say .. that is a lacking description ! in the second scenario the dog went after the decoy but my friend thought his dog had great prey drive .. that kept him and the decoy from really reading the dog. because he ran hard and fast and bit hard ? so I told him what to do for training there on in .. 8 months later the dog was doing belgium PSA. if he continued talking about the great prey drive instead of qualitatively and quantitavley adressing behavior he might have ruined this dog.

How about this... Fight Drive = Dominant Temperament X (Foreward in Prey + Intense in Defense) If Dominance equals "zero", anything multiplied by that, still equals zero. It's commonly agreed that few dogs are equiped with true "fight drive". The ones that are unwilling to accept defeat, increase their efforts as the pressure or challenge escalates. When there's "will to win", more is accomplished as the envelope is pushed. So, essentially, it's a dynamic interaction of drives defined by a ruling temperament.

Now to me that is a contradiction in terms ..An animal can swith motivations but you are saying a dog is both in prey and prey [ prey + intense defense] . That is t most contradictory and that is the reason IMO the word drives is a misplaced descripion.In the animal world you do not see a lion or a wolf go to chase, capture , possese , guard then fight it's oponent. Perhaps intent on killing it and eating . Perhaps a willingness to accomplish the task but an animal is not in both at the same time .As a helper you may turn a dog that was been in a so called prey mode /motivation , as the helper changes then yes you can go to the point where you can make a dog feel for it's life and have to defend itself . That is a change . But to think a canine can be in both at the same time .. well now. Also .. this is another reason ... those that have done training .. asidde from the semantics and words .. can see what is going on behaviorally . but for those new ... using the word drive is short because it does not allow one to see into that individual dog[ many a dog is misread] . drive does not account for what a canine is thinking , feeling, and the exact motivation in a particular moment . The word drive is to broad based. just as in the example above with my freind .. he could not see into his dog because he thought a great chase amnd bite meant great prey drive .. and as you can read .. that is surely far short of describimg full berhavior

A german shepherd is not a terror..

yes DesertRanger .. you are correct ..the GSD is not a terror. --And to add .. all animals to accomplish a goal use the least i.e. most proficient and efficient amount of energy to attain their goal. If they are going to chase and kill it is acomplished swiftly, and the intent is not to fight. Just like what is taught in martial arts. if you must engage combatively .. then one blow .. your done. And I do mean to get into hassle about semantics or about the exiastence of fight frive .. my point .. the word drive does not ,the best we can , help us best read everyuthing about our dogs and understand behavior to the fullest. It is More inportant to "in see" into the dog itself than to be saying " it's prey / it's defense " , it's this or that.And the defintions cause ambiguity understanding behavior . For example .. two you pups that are frolicking and running around .. Is that so called , play drive, prey drive , and when engaged , fight drive ?? Just to cookbook and what I have seen . again .. doesn't tell me a thing about the pups feeling , thoughts , emotions and motivation.Important to know because wqe must in see into the dog if we wish to bring out the potential. The word " Drives" just leads to guru mehtodologies ... So many times I Hve seen trainers misread dogs or try to make them what they are nto and miss out on what they could have been . Read the dog inside itself .

I agree with you on this and I have mentioned before that anytime you breed for one trait in excess you have a high possability of losing other desireable traits. Much focus is on drives of a GSd but that is just piece of the puzzle.

good post Dyrlehret......

Alphapup, Since drive is not the term you prefer, what terms do you use to specifically identify a dogs motivations. Your point that the word "drive" is broad is true. But ambiguity comes from a lack of precise definition. Authors of previous post have been fairly clear with their definitions. So what are yours?

Alphapup, Refering to your first post. What is Belgium PSA?

QUOTE: "all animals to accomplish a goal use the least i.e. most proficient and efficient amount of energy to attain their goal" I don't accept that idea. If it were true, then my cat wouldn't enjoy toying with mice so much. Some dogs really truly enjoy their work, can't wait for it, and that seems part temperament as well. I wonder, if we paid our dogs "by the hour", would motivation decrease, and the pace and efficiency? Some people take pride in what they do and are "driven" by a challenge, some don't. I feel that if a dog doesn't like the job you give it, it probably will never excel at it. QUOTE: "So many times I Hve seen trainers misread dogs or try to make them what they are nto and miss out on what they could have been . Read the dog inside itself ." I think you're very right in that statement. Generalized terms, though, are the only way to communicate about what's going on. ANY field of study requires terminology for what it puts into practice. Unfortunately, preconceived notions can fog the senses of a critic to what's actually presented before them. QUOTE: "The word " Drives" just leads to guru mehtodologies ..." You're absolutely right there also, but that's not necessarily a bad thing. If it weren't for Euclidean Geometry, we wouldn't have developed millions of technologically advanced ideas that were built from those fundamental basics. Look at the fields of human psychology though, and note that there are MANY. There are easily as many ways to train a dog, I'm sure. The goals and methods of each venue are different, as they are in various forms of martial arts. Some are aggression-based, full-frontal-attack mode, some are not, most utilize similar concepts, such as "chi" or "ki". Thai kickboxing has little resemblance to aikido. Just like people, different dogs are more suitable for different jobs. As courageous as a corgi may be, I've never seen one do a long bite, so certain terms need not apply.