question in ED - Page 1

Hello every one: Who can tell me that if a male have ED:noch zugelassen,Can he have KKL1? Thank you.

of course

Agreed. Of course he can. But why it is still possible? That's my question. Bob-O

Good question Bob, and also why breed to him? He better be one uniquely talented and spectacular dog. While a dogs own status is less important than the status of their progeny, I view NZ as a strong negative in the selection of a stud. Best Wishes, Jonah

flywolf ,s dog has NZ and you want to ban her/him from breeding......? flywolf,s dog has 4 littermates with normal and these 4 have also a normal what ,s the score of your dog?

I mean ,to breed succesfull there is more needed as normal x normal

There is a lot more to breeding than hips and elbows. Noch zugelassen ist a passing grade, so the question why breed with it is basically redundant. In terms of breeding rules that is. Not in terms of individual breeding choices. The percentage of dogs with NZ is small. The percentage of dogs with NZ that enter the breeding pool is smaller still. Now that ED has become a requirement for breeding, we will see more of the NZ in ED because before it was not even tested, nothing is known of our current dogs ED history, and now people will need to make choices based on more requirements / options. So lets say you have a dog with a1 or a2 hips and a good HD history, have bred for a certain line and the dog basically fulfills everything you had been hoping for - will you exclude the dog just because a previously unknown factor is now part of the equation? I would not. Especially if I have seen the x-rays and the vet and I did not see anything of concern. We all know that some results come back as a surprise... Time will tell what ED NZ will really produce. That is why the SV does not have a breed value for it yet, that will follow only after enough data is available. What to breed with is always a breeders individual decision, based on the whole picture, never on just bits and pieces. You can not take part A in one dog and look for the 'ideal' match or improvement of part A in the second dog and hope that part A will be such and such in all the pups. Contrary to popular belief breeding, or rather the results of breeding just does not happen that way. I hear often enough - I need a stud with a better uppper arm, because my dog is lacking there, or a better croup or a better topline, etc. As if that is going to make it better in the dog with the flaw... There are very few things in breeding GSD that are so dominant in the reproduction that you can plan for it that way. Part of breeding also includes to improve on what you have. That is not meant as improving the breed, but improving the dog you breed with, or the lines you have in the dogs background. It also includes testing what your lines produce. If you only mate ideal to ideal you will never know where some of the weaknesses are, or rather may hide. Flydog, yes a dog can get KKL1 with HD and/or ED noch zugelassen. If anyone will come and use such a dog for breeding is based on their choices. If anyone will want to buy a puppy out of such parents is also up to their choice. Only you can decide if the dog is worth it to pursue the titling and KKL. If every dog with NZ had been put out to pasture, we would not have had great dogs like Jeck Noricum, Okar Karthago, and of course the reigning BSP and WUSV Sieger Caro. No one really knew what would become of them at the time that they came back with the NZ. Took a few more years and owners willing to take that chance with these dogs til they made it there. That is also part of breeding, waiting to see how things will turn out with the individual dog, and then after that if a dog that turned out great will have something great to offer for the follow up generations. Jeck we know produced better hips than the breed average. Could be with Caro too, time will tell.

DH, I respect your point of view and your experience, and I agree that history has borne out the use of Jeck and other greats. At the same time I feel better about normal x normal all other factors being equal. While I consider ZW to be far more indicative of a dogs production capabilities, I look at normal x normal as a slightly safer bet. Best Wishes, Jonah

Jonah, I also respect your position, and most certainly your comfort level :o). Breeding good dogs does not always mean going the safest route though. Breeding is a process and in order to get from here to there I may have to accept some compromises along the road. Otherwise you breed for health aspects pretty much only and leave out the rest. That may be good for the pet puppy buyer that wants that healthy pet (if it would actually produce reliable results, which it does not) but will not help the breeder that also aims for results in the sport or shows. ZW is a funny thing. It is actually quite easy to tweak it down. A few years ago a stud owner in Germany advertised free stud service to select bitches with a1, low ZW and a proven HD performance. The only reason he did that was to get his dogs ZW down. There have been a few dogs that had their ZW up for a while and with selective breeding it come down. 20 points not being so much out of the ordinary. Or a dog had one or too poorly rated offspring in a quarter which makes the ZW surge up, and then in the next few quarters the value normalizes again as results that are average for what that dog produces come in. HD and ED results and ZW are guidelines. If you have followed some of the comments here, there have been lots of people who have re-submitted dogs for OFA and got better results second time around. You hardly ever hear that about a-stamps because the SV makes such a review or re-submission nearly impossible. Or people who brought dogs over from Germany with a-stamp a1, a2 or a3 and got an OFA good in the US. We all know of poor quality x-rays for all sort of reasons. Add to that the environmental factors. Too many unknowns and variables to deal with. Also with ED. Using a-stamps and OFA results and ZW as such a black and white scenario is little more than a crutch. And unfortunately it does create a false sense of security in the breeder and also in the puppy buyer who does not know much of breeding and some of the dogs backgrounds. A ZW of 65 in both parents, which automatically means a1 hips in these dogs, does not automatically guarantee a1 offspring. 40 years of OFA and a-stamps and selective breeding and it is still around. Not just in the GSD. Its not like people have not been trying. But think of all the things that have been accomplished in other fields in 40 years. Or what 40 years of other selective breeding has produced... Right now with the limited knowledge and results we have it comes down to choices Jonah. Yes, whatever a breeder and the buyer will be comfortable with. Would be nice if it was as easy as a1 x a1 by way of low ZW.