Question on genetic - Page 1

Hello everybody, I have a genetic questions to which I've found only one article in Russian language. And this article didn't explane much. There is a brown and tan GSD puppy out of sable parents. As far as I understood she got 2 recessive genes of black color from each of her parents which made her coat to be brown instead of black. The question is about her mother and next litters, does this mean that in next breeding with different sire there will be the same chance to get wrong color or not? Should be her dam removed from the breeding programm or not, the same question is about her litter mates. I would appretiate your help in explanation very much!

I guess we must first investigate if the puppy you are callig "brown and tan" is a liver or just a sable, take a look at the nose so if it has a black nose its problably a sable, a correct collor by the standart, yet if it has a brown nose, it must be a liver puppy, a rare collor that is not allowed by the standard. If the puppy is a sable there is nothing wrong just keep using the parents, If a liver had born it means both parents get the genetic to produce liver, and they shouldnt breed whith each other again, at least, I wouldnt breed any of them if the puppy is really a liver. MAKE SURE YOU KNOW THE CORRECT COLLOR OF THE PUPPY.

I agree with José. The proper identification of the colour is required. Sable is a foundation colour and sable parents can produce sable puppies and black/brown (some say tan or red depending on the darkness of the hair) puppies. In all cases the pigment must be rich. The nose, muzzle, mask, and toe nails must be rick black colour and there must be a black tip of the tail. Any sable hairs must have a rich black present in the shaft of the hair-preferably at the tip. This will of course depend on when the dog has blown its top coat. Any deviation from this is not correct. If this is the pattern produced by the parents then it is fine. White spots should never be present, although there may well be grey spots and/or cream-coloured areas on the inner legs and thighs. I repeat what José said, and you need to determine the true colour pattern of the puppies. Parents who produce the liver (or the blue) coat cannot be used in a breeding programme. Bob-O

José Tinoco, Bob-O, thanks a lot for your time and explanations!

Reg. exclusion of parents from breeding programm. I've found on the Net the list of dilute carriers where you can see some names of well known dogs. http://www.geocities.com/sahiela2/DiluteCarriers.html If they had produced diluted colors how come they were not excluded from the breeding? I just want to make things clear for myself and to make sure I understand things in the right way.

Wille, even though they are carriers they can be bred to dogs who are not carriers. I am NOT saying that I approve of this, though. The outcome is that approximately 50% of the offspring MAY be carriers. Maybe less, maybe more. While genetic distribution is mathematically exact if one places it as a formula statement, in the real world it is not exact and the distribution is not perfect. Ancestors such as these you mention are reponsible for certain issues ocassionally appearing, and should not be bred. The faulty gene(s) will never disappear as long as dogs like this are allowed to breed. But we know so much more about canine genetics these days and just recently have developed tests for certain things such as the presence of the genes that produce longcoats and those that produce pancreatic insufficiency (EPI) to identify the dogs who carry these genes. While the first problem causes no health issues, the second one can cause death at an early age. It's my personal theory about the small bowl of genetic soup. Sometimes when you stir the soup, you do not know which vegetable will float to the top. If you prevent certain dogs from breeding then you can lessen the presence of bad genes, but I am quite sure that all genetic issues will never be resolved, as not all dogs will be tested. Bob-O

Bob-O, thanks a lot for your help and explanations!

Maybe someone can give me the hint on other sourses where I could find the information about GSD known to be carriers of bad genes? The pedigree of above mentioned dogs looked quite good with V and VA German GSDs, both parents have good temperament and health and here came liver puppy! I know that breeding is a serious play and we did lots of research before this particular breeding but look what we got ((. I would really like to prevent myself and my friends from breeding bad dogs but with very very little information here it's almost impossible! I know that not many people like to tell about such a problems (especially in my country where people don't pay big money for dogs very often). That's why I'm asking this question here, hoping that I will get some information from people who breed dogs for bred and not for money.

Well, I guess I will not get much of such an information here either. That's funny...((

Not funny at all Wille, because your question assumes that there would be a simple answer. Which there is not. For starters there are no genetic tests out there for dogs, with results recorded. So if anything we can maybe mention a few dogs who have been known to produce something less than ideal in their offspring. Every dog will produce something less than the ideal at some time or another. That does not make the dog automatically a bad producer. That is part of breeding. All dogs have some 'bad' genes somewhere and certain combinations with females will bring them to the surface. If you want to produce only perfect dogs then you are not talking about breeding, then you are talking about eugenics. Been tried and does not work. There is a reason why dogs have litters. Because according to nature the majority of a litter is expendable. What we consider perfect nature also does not care about, such as if the teeth are not perfect, or the coat, or the colour, or the size, or gait, or presence, or even drive. Survival of a species does not depend on trivial stuff like that. Also, keep in mind that the dogs that were the first to create this breed had traits, themselves and in their background that today may not be desirable any more, but back then were not such a major issue. Back then people would simple cull the undesirable pups, and also did not have to worry about information flowing quite so rapidly and potentially damaging a dogs or a breeders reputation. But these traits are in the GSD heritage and every once in a while something will surface again. Add to that new traits that have been developed as the breed evolved, or traits that have been compounded over time because of certain trends. Breeding is also more than genetics. Environment plays a huge role. Why is it that quality of dogs goes down with some breeders who are outside of Germany and breed with only imports yet with others who are outside of Germany and breed with only imports the quality of what they produce is maintained? They both have the same base they breed with. Some food for thought.