If they mated... - Page 1

I checked back as far as I could on the pedigree of my showline red/black female and saw no solid black, sable or bi-color ancestry. I was told if she was bred to a solid black male there would be the possibility of a few solid black pups. Based on what I have read here, this is not possible. All the pups would be red/black. Am I correct? I'm also wondering if any solid black showline GSD exists. I have not seen any, only workingline.

Currently there are no black show line GSD in Germany, if we are talking true show lines. But there are black show/working line mixes, or black working line dogs with excellent conformation. You may get the very odd throwback from God know how far back if you do such a mating, but the chances of that happening are very slim. Basically if you mate an SV show line GSD with a black dog you will get black and tan, probably with a higher black content, but not necessarily. All offspring from such a litter will be black recessive and you may get black in the second generation if mated with a black dog again. If you wanted to keep the show conformation you should mate back to a show line dog in the second generation and than in the third generation to a well structured black dog, hoping to get the black again. Black is a problem colour in the show ring. It shows off any flaws more easily and more pronounced than any other colours do. Black can also produce a lesser coat quality as you would like to see in the show ring. Shorter coats also show off flaws a lot more. So if you ever wanted to do this look for a black GSD with good conformation and a good coat. And also with good pigmentatin around eyes, nose, footpads/toenails and a dark eye, as black dog does not automatically = good pigment.

Good post D.H. Last black VA (possibly the ONLY) was Frei vd Gugge in '69, '70, '71. Some bicolors are easily mistaken for blacks as the tan only shows on the fringe of their legs. As bicolor is dominant over b/t saddle, such a dog would likely produce more of the same depending on the mate and whether the dog is homozygous bicolor. The likelihood of producing a true black from blk/rd showline is slim to none as DH said.

I have to correct you JDH, the last black VA was Jutta von der Klein-Welzheimer-Schleuse in 1974. http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/pedigree/2214.html Of course, females do not get the attention males get. There is no photo of Jutta here on the Pedigreedatabase, but I have one in my VA-album. If you own this album, please check the 1974 leaflets. But you are right, Frei and Jutta might be the only black VAs in SV-history, unless there were some prior to 1964. That is when my photo album starts. A great black was V-Zello von der Hessischen Grenze, who I think could still compete today in the show ring (owned by Bodo Dexel). A few years ago, I co-owned a sable conformation line female named Ivy vom Haus Dexel, who - when bred to a black V-rated working line male - produced a solid black puppy for my co-owner. Ivy's female line went back to Zello. So, I do think somehow that black recessive gene was preserved in 5 or 6 generations of conformation lines in between. Amazing!

Gringo von der Philippsburg owned by Gus Levin got the V rating in Aug.21-23 1998 in Nuremberg

Silbersee, Thanks. I was not aware that Jutta was black. Your pup proves that the recessive is still out there, just so rare that it seldom comes up in a breeding. I suppose the dominant sable gene hides a good number of black genes. Interesting that the black has all but disappeared, while coats continue to exist in the population. Best Wishes, Jonah

I believe Gringo also went V at the '98 USA Sieger Show in Washington State, again under Messler. I am hoping to get a solid black when I breed my sable V Pallo Aroler Holz daughter (Portia vom Haus Roecker) to my dark sable V Carol vom Arolser Holz, probably sometime next fall. Pallo (deceased) and Carol have both produced solid black puppies. Portia well do so too.

Shelley: What color was ALi Vom Alpensee and I think Nikko vom Haus Profitt is black? both sired by Gringo

nice niformative post of GSD history from you folks -- my thanks -- for the info too --

Nikko is short for Nicholas but there is no pic of him or Ali or many of the progheny of Gringo...one of his girls has a big black spot on her tongue like my SteffenHaus girls and boys and they dont have "chow" in them, either......V Nicci vom Haus Profitt but she is USA born from Gringo and her mom is out of a BSP..Nicco looks like a big headed beauty and I love her black spot......