Work Potential in Puppies - Page 1

I disagree with others who have said that there is no way you have any clue if an 8 week old puppy will work. That's what testing was made for and an experienced breeder/person can tell right off the bat if a puppy has good work "POTENTIAL" or not. The differences in puppies drives are very obvious. I think the key here is knowing what the word POTENTIAL means. It means that considering all factors: bloodlines, parents, previous same breeding outcomes,testing and observation etc. the puppy has more or less potential to have what it takes to work. There are also alot of factors that go into raising a working puppy correctly. A puppy can easily be ruined. So, I would agree that it is senseless to say that the working outcome can be guaranteed. BUT, ANY experienced person can say without a doubt that a puppy has excellent POTENTIAL or not. Now, the show quality factor in a puppy is much harder to deal with. I don't believe that anyone, no matter how experienced, can tell, beyond a doubt, how a puppy will turn out for the show ring. Yes, parents/breeding and judging the puppy, can give you a educated guess. But that is all it can be where conformation is concerned. Debby

Hi Debby, I totally agree that you can see working potential in a puppy! However, it might not be apparent to an outsider right away. What I mean is that you sometimes have to spend a week with puppies before you can truly see their working potential. Sometimes puppies just do not display it right off to a stranger or do not respond as great as they will later on to a strange “toy” like a rag – perhaps because they are too excited to be in a new area or something. And later on the same pups will fly into the air to get to that rag. I’ve sure seen this. As far as assessing show potential in a pup – yes, you can do that too. If you can go into the ring and judge adult dogs, you can judge the puppies too. It is not as easy and obvious, but you can still see if the croup is long and is positioned well or if it is short and sloping. You can see bone strength and potential coat type and color, etc. Again, just like with working abilities, you see the POTENTIAL or absence of such.

There are established tests used to determine the temperament, social character, and type/level of drive for puppies at eight (8) weeks of age. And while these tests are no guarantee, they can determine the suitability of a puppy as a working prospect, especially compared to other puppies from the same or similar litters. Evenso, to try to make a determination of the quality as far a show prospect is a tremendous gamble. While at this age one can see major physical characteristics, one can only really determine whether the physique is mostly good or mostly bad. One who has observed many puppies from birth to maturity and taken good notes can determine certain things to be apparent, such as rear angulation, front angulation, head carry, tail lay/length, and croup angle/length and determine whether these things are normal, or not normal. As far as "show quality" I think that none of us can trust 100% what we see at eight weeks of age. But, by using the published guidelines we can usually tell whether or not we have a puppy who conforms to the standard. There are still many things that will cause failure. Soft ear(s), faulty set of ears, missing testicle(s), not all adult teeth appeared, poor gaiting, etc. Bob-O

I agree wholeheartedly Debbie. Potential IS the keyword. There seems to be the common misconception that "working potential" needs to equal National level and "show potential" needs to equal VA or at the bare minimum top V. Working potential actually means that the dog will later be capable of doing SchH, if the dog was raised under ideal conditions and that natural ability was nurtured properly. Capable of doing SchH means being able to complete a passing trial at local level. No one can predict top level at any age until a dog has made it there. And since it is a team sport, much depends on the handler and not just the dog. The most talented working dog will never become WUSV Champion with an owner who does not know how to get the best out of that dog or how to train and trial. Or who himself folds under the pressure of trialing. But the basic potential can be determined at puppy age. Show potential should mean the dog can be shown, that means it will be capable of achieving at least a G. For show dog enthusiasts of course it translates into being at least V capable, with just a passing score of G not being adequate here. But that is basic V, not top V. Again, no one can determine top V until the dog has made it there. Again, the dog cannot make it there on its own, and much of the show success is dependent on how dedicated the owner is to raising the pup properly, trialing, ring training, presentation and campaigning of the dog. The dog with the best gait and conformation will never get the placing it could achieve if not prepared and presented properly. Other than unfortunate mishaps Bob has already described and a few more, the basic potential can definitely be determined at puppy age. Basic potential, not top potential. What makes a pup a "crap shot" is determined by the owners expectations. If the owner is hoping for top, then a puppy will be a long shot. If the owner is hoping for a good general representative of the breed, then the chances of picking that at puppy age are actually pretty good.

I disagree as usual be kind! If you could sort out work potential in a eight week old puppy we would not need to get green dogs for work. A puppy is a crap shoot, you may like some things or some things may stand out when sorting throught a litter at that age but no one can guage whether it will work or not as eight weeks old puppies. The older the puppy the better guess you have for seeing its potential even a 12 week old or 14 week old will give you better indication but again a crap shoot at best. Even a 12 month old billed as top sport prospect is just that a prospect as many variables come in to play how that dog will mature. You get a indication of the bite quality by that time but there is two more phases to Schutzhund than just bite work. The main thing to look for in a eight week old is confidence, is it spooky, how does it react to strange noises, how does it act when taken off the home turf. This is the biggest thing to look for in selection at that age. The best puppy after a ball at eight weeks may or may not be the puppy who has extreme ball drive later. Blackstar could care less for a ball out of the litter I had years ago and he ened up with extreme ball drive, drug dog ball drive but he was the puppy who looked at the ball at eight weeks old.

In general I think it is hard to select out the ideal puppy at 8 weeks old for personal protection or Schutzhund. But there are exceptions. Sometimes a litter is just so exceptional that most or all the puppies have the "look of eagles" or "fire in their eyes" and are afraid of nothing. Many years ago I got a call from Larry Filo of Steiningtal Kennels (sp?) who was looking for a young puppy for my wife and I with super-hard but sane temperament that could be socialized into a family setting. Larry told me that he had an exeptional dream litter out of his V rated cross-over dog Canto. He said both the sire and Dam who were Sch III, IPO III, were top working dogs and yet very sane around children and the public. We drove up to his kennel in northern wisconsin and examined the litter. We found them just like he said. The puppies ran toward us and any strangers and jumped all over us to play. They ran toward fireworks or any noise and just showed complete boldness, totally curious about everything. I selected the friendliest most outgoing puppy who just happened to be the most aggressive with rags, other puppies and balls. Any puppy in the litter would have been great. Larry cautioned us that this chunky, short bodied black sable puppy would need a lot of obediance work and very strict discipline in order to be a good citizen, because of his dominance. The first year of ownership was trying at times and he chewed up over 300 dollars of nylabones (in 1990 dollars no less). Once in the back yard he chewed through a one inch thick wooden fence in about three minutes when I mistaskenly looked the other way. But other than this first year he became the best, most loving, loyal and odediant dog one could ever want. He loved people but was totally self confident, and totally devoted to his family and ready to protect at any time. During the day he was easy going and at night he patrolled the inside of our home with a vengeance. I tested him once with an agitator at about one year old and he took the sleeve with a vengeance after watching an experienced Sch. dog. He lived to be 10 years old. At one time he stopped a burglar at my front door cold in his tracks after he had kicked our door in, and then chased him down the road. If I hadn't told him to stop he would have probably dragged the guy back. My point is this: that sometimes a puppy is just so exceptional you can see this "fire in the eyes" and the look of a predator (the "eagle eye") in a young puppy. Once you have seen this and it doesn't occur often, you'll never, never, forget it. (also, my dog had a normal pancreas too and thus his prey drive was real and he was not a skinny, stringy nerve ending either; he was calm and easy going but could become protective very quickly when appropriate). Our friends loved him too. He was just a great dog in every way.

Preston, I agree that occasionally a puppy appears whose character is so outstanding that it is evident to all who meet him. I produced one like that last year, and was a bit sad to see him go to a companion home, even though I know that his owners wanted him and love him very much. While his littermates were from "nice" to "okay", he was clearly the superstar. And wow, that facial expression. Bob-O

I try to narrow trhe selection down from a conformation stand point around 6.5 weeks. I think 12 weeks is about where you can begin to see what a dog has. This is all subject to change at any time, but you have to start somewhere. Prospect is the correct term. Expectations should be realistic from the beginning. It's really satisfying when a special pup comes along. One that pulls so hard to get the rag it's eyes look like they are going to pop out.

outside of that one special pup, its a crap shoot, if it wasnt there would be more HOT dogs on the world team. how exactly do you measure a puppy's ability to handle stress? How do you know how it will react when the helper drives it? will the grip change, will it have strong gaurding, how will it handle the pressure in OB. the dog will have to put up w/ not only physical correction but the stress of doing it over and over again, that takes a toll on a dog. what about the stress of a hot day. Or when it screws up an exercise, will it be able to get it together and finish the routine or will it be stressed he rest of hte routine causing bad fronts and finishes or acting nervous when the handle approaches for the side transport. how will it handle the mental and physical demands of tracking. There is no way you can tell which puppies will be able to handle and fight thru the stress of a trail. If someone had it all figured out they could sell puppies for the same as young dogs $4k - $7k. Ive seen a lot of puppies that had potential and never made it. but then again every coach i ever had told me that "POTENTAIL" is a fancy french word that means "AIN"T DONE SH*T" you can look ta a pup and see which ones have a greater chance than others, but until the you see how it handles stress its a crap shoot

It is possible to pick out a working prospect at 8 weeks. As stated earlier, to what working level, only God knows. As stated earlier as well, confidence is a good indicator, noise sureness is a positive, play and chase motivation is yet another good indicator. Now you can pick out a pup for a client with all the above, and the new home environment can suppress and ruin all the above. Will the new owner admit they screwed up the dog, No! The litter was crap and you gave me a crap dog. Kyle