Opening the stud book - Page 1

With all the discussion on what is good or bad or going down hill with the GSD, I was curious if there has ever been any discussion on opening the stud book to other breeds. 

They are actually talking about doing this with our show horses (Morgans) because the lines are becoming so line and inbred.  We have horses that can move like crazy in the ring but have a hard time standing on their own two feet in the stall.  There are breeders that would like to introduce another breed that is similar in structure and movement to help strengthen the Morgan breed.  They are already "hiding" these other breeds in their barns and using them on the sly but now that DNA testing is required it's not so easy.

So any thoughts on the pros and cons of opening the book for a year or so?

Dogs or horse's do you really think this would help?

I dont. 

Maybe alot of research and very careful breeding. 

MI_GSD - Are they talking about adding the Canadian Horse back in or another breed?  I Justin Morgan was half canadian.

I personally think its a great idea - its not just Morgans that are looking at doing it - tons of horse breeds bring in thoroghbred and arabian stock to imrpove their lines.  The *German* Warmblood breeds are famous for it, which is why I imagine they are at the very top of the food chain when it comes to preformance horses (I dont understand why their horse people can do it but the dog people nearly faint at the idea)

It would require serious testing...preformance, structure, temperment, nerves - maybe spend a year doing 1 to 2 month tests on studs and going over females and testing them.  Maybe hold keurings to test all these things and inspections.  Then once that year of testing is up then a year of open books would in all liklihood improve the breed - especially health wise I think.  Heterosis is NEVER a bad thing...it brings good genes back up to the front and helps remove alot of the bad that has been festering in lines for years and years. 

Alot of research and careful breeding can do some...but provides none of the benefits of heterosis.  And in reality - how much of the breeding stock would have to be wiped out for that - the breed would have to go through a bottle neck because I really do think there are so few of the dogs they are looking for that are all around what they want that we would just cause more problems - because the breed would become inbred to a huge extent on those few dogs found to be right.

~Cate

Ceph the most commonly used are the Saddlebred and Hackney.  I would also suspect some Warmbloods as jumping has become quite popular in the breed.  People want performance and height in their show horses now so we have gone from this:

To this:

In between, there were some horse with some severe problems cropping up which were affecting the performance.  They were great in-hand horses and nice to look at but they couldn't move due to club feet and leg problems.

Since bringing in the other breeds (even if they were snuck in) and careful breeding, the breed seems to be stabilizing.

The bringing in of new blood for the GSD would probably not involve the showline dogs.  I was thinking more along the lines of the working dogs.

The second horse looks like a Saddlebred.  My idea of a Morgan is the first one.  If the Morgan people want the long-necked  high-stepping lighter-boned "type" then why don't they just change breeds to Saddlebred - why destroy a breed that is supposed to be heavy-boned, useful and versatile like a Morgan?  My opinion is, if you don't want to ruin a breed, DON'T breed other breeds into it, but avoid inbreeding and line-breeding to breed for "type" rather than the whole picture.  The breeders themselves are destroying the pure breeds and what they are supposed to look like/perform like as well as drive and temperament.  Same as dogs.

molly

I am not gonna lie - I love that first picture...that is one hec of a gorgeous horse!

~Cate

I agree with Molly 100%.

I am a purist and hate for people to "customize" to their current whim. I have come across a warmblood that made a pretty darn nice westernhorse. I have met several qh that could jump awesome. And so on. If you are a diehard Warmblood fan but love to do something non warmbloody (made that up) then there are individuals out there. Find them. But if you are a diehard Dressage fan and want to be competitive, then don't think a Friesan is going to do it. And that is ok. If you love a certain breed and a certain sport then find the right animal within those limits. They do exist. But of course it is a lot easier just to try to build it than spend the time and money to find the right animal. And yes, this finding can certainly be a long frustrating jouney. But then, so is finding the right human partner to live with.

Also keep in mind that in the Warmbloods the TB that are used for crossing have to pass the studtest and qualify for the studbooks first. They have to fit the standard. It is not done by someones whim.

But Goffert 369 was so pretty doing it.  Maybe not perfect but definitely stunning.   http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0RHx24qkqdY

Okay, you guys win.  No open stud book for the GSD.  The way the horse market is going right now, I'm surprised anyone is even breeding at all.

oh god - dont even show me a friesian...I might pee my pants.  I love those horses.  When I went to Holland I went to a Friesian farm and it was...in short...amazing.  They generally arent considered to be warmbloods though - they are considered Draft breeds, even though they are lighter and do do very well at some of the dressage shows.

But I do think opening the books has its merits...and like I said, the German Warmbloods are kicking ass right now, and they ALL have open stud books with strict testing.

Goose - thats what I think they should do with the GSD - test and find the dogs that fit the standard the best with the right combination of nerves and temperment...then test the crap out of them.  They may be hard to find, but I bet they are out there.   I dont think it makes sense to willy nilly cross in other dogs - no - they need to be tested, tested, tested before they are approved.

~Cate

The Arabian horse industry has been crossing the Arabian with other breeds for decades; Saddlebreds (called the National Show Horse), Quarter Horse, Hackney, Morgan (called Morab) just to name a few. They even have their own half-arabian registry.  I personally do not believe in cross breeding to "improve" the breed. I believe we can improve the purebred by selective breeding. Both the Arabian horse and the German Shepherd Dog are beautiful in its pure state doesn't need to be "crossed" with another breed.