another pedigree question... - Page 1

i've noticed alot of the pedigree # have the type of pedigree on there also...like AKC, before the number, should i put that on mine?  is that something we're suppose to do? when registering the dog, if they have akc wrote in front of the number-but you only type in the number, will it make a difference when it shows if the dog is already registered?

There are no "rules" here about how you post ped info.  I think it's helpful to include the registry, for clarification, but it's not a "requirement" per se.  The only reason I would think anyone would have an axe to grind is if you posted another dog's number or some such. 

thanks SchHbabe- if its helpful to others, ill go change it,. and  by posting anothers dogs # do you mean as in putting a # with your dogs pics and say its your pedigree? do people actually do that?

and i forgot to ask another question.....sorry...how far back on the pedigree would a dog be considered relavent with the breeding of your dog?

Ah Iluv the 64,000 dollar question that is sure to generate a lot of comments , heat and discussion. The answer - it depends who you're talking to and how well they know dogs in general, the breed and/or your dog specifically. A geneticist will give you a very scientific mathematical answer and probably tell you 3 maximum 4 generations. Problem is I don't know too many geneticists who are great dog breeders.

Dog breeding is as much an art as it is a science. Some people have an absolute eye for knowing which 2 animals should go together or not. Some people never have that skill and never will no matter how long they study or try to learn. The other problem is sometimes breedings click for a reason no one really knows. Sometimes they click good and sometimes very very bad. Sometimes a breeding will produce a spectacular dog but no matter how many times the breeding is repeated nothing comes close to that animal. Often that dog is what we call a sport - i.e. he does not reproduce himself ( not meaning he can't breed but meaning there is no consistency to what he reproduces and none if it approaches his quality)

My personal view is the more information you have the better. That being said - know the quality of your information. There are a lot of self proclaimed prophets out there willing to tell you this and that about any given dog or line. How much is remotely true - well that's another story. The truly knowledgeable folks in the breed have gained their knowledge by what I call "time in grade". They've seen the dogs they're speaking about or a number of their children or grandchildren. They've seen enough progeny to know if in fact the trait is from a certain line or not. They are not just breeding names on a pedigree. They know what that name means and what good AND bad traits come with it. Best thing to do if you can is find one of these living legends and learn from them if you can. Pick their brain. Ask questions. Ok since they are few and far between next best is to study study study - go to as many dog events as you can. Don't just go to working trials or conformation shows - go to both and herding events and agility etc. Any place there are GSD's. See how they work in each of those areas ( and SAR, K9 trials etc etc). Ask people about their dogs what they like and don't. Ask about their breeding. For book learning I suggest Carmen Battaglia - go to one of his seminars if you can. http://www.breedingbetterdogs.com/   Find out of print stuff by Lloyd Brackett - a very succesful breeder of his own line of GSDs from the 30-s to the 50's. Carmen has a short explanation of his philosophy here  http://www.breedingbetterdogs.com/bracket.html. In this video age you have resources we never had - video of dogs working, the SV videos on structure ( I like the Dingo vom Haus Gero one with the steroscope of the skeleton imposed on the moving dog). The web gives you access to interviews (print and video) with famous breeders.

Why all this emphasis on information gathering? (next post the board doesn't seem to like my long rambling.)

VKFGSD-thanks...lol..aparently i usually ramble myself...

Your question was how far back in the pedigree would a dog be considered relevant. First of all he is only relevant if you actually know something about the dog and/or his lines. Relevance in pedigrees is about predictability. What does that dog bring to the table and how does if affect the breeding. If you do not have any information about the dog he may be relevant you just don't know how. The important thing to understand in choosing to linebreed on any individual is to understand the traits he/she had that you want to increase in your lines. Next question is did he pass on those traits and are they exhibited in the animals between him and your dog. If not chances are you won't get what you are looking for. So do not just linebreed on a name - know what you are looking for and as importantly what you are not looking for. If a dog has great fight but produces horrible bulldog fronts - I personally will not sacrifice the front. I will find another dog with great fight because I know that fronts are very easy to lose and almost impossible to get back and I greatly believe the more correct the dog's structure the better the ability to work and the longer the dog will be able to work. Or what if the choice was a dog that had a trait I wanted but his lines also showed a great tendency to die young for whatever the reason. My choice here is for longevity. So that's the other important lesson - it's never a simple one choice decision. You are always balancing choices related to drives(including pack, obedience, fight, prey, herding etc), structure, health, longevity, reproductive traits etc etc.

There are two basic camps in the how far back question. One follows along with the geneticists - only the front 3 to 4 generations matter after that everything is too diluted. The 2nd camp says I want to know a mimimum of 5-6 generations and the more the better. My personal view is they're both right they just tend to be looking at different things. Up close you are looking at individual paint strokes - very defined very predictable traits. Further back you are looking at the broad brush strokes - the overall type, the character, the production of a family or line as well as an individual  and sometimes the consistency of a particular trait ( ex. correct fronts or good hip production etc).

I tend to be slightly more the I want to know everything type because one of the things I have learned is it matters what is massed back in those 6th and 7th generations. What happens sometimes is you end up getting an incredible  amount of what I call inadvertent linebreeding back there and when you get that kind of concentration of genes - things do pop out of the woodwork. Two things I've seen a number of times in my years of shepherds that lurk in the back beyond and then show up are missing teeth and off colors. I also know that there are certain lines that I love the structure on and I can ID those lines by sight almost all the time because those lines developed a very definable type that persists down thru the generations.  Whoops too long again - :) see next thread

I have a great and good friend who sits on the other side of the table - the only what's up front counts. I have great respect for her knowledge and she knows far more about working dogs than I ever will. She has seen a lot of these dogs and knows what they bring to the table. She's a great resouce. The interesting part is for the most part the traits we choose to select for are very similar and tho we approach it for opposite ends of the table more often or not we will agree about a choice of a dog .  

Lastly know that in breeding animals, there are certain types of linebreeding/inbreeding that are more potent in setting/fixing type ( again it can set bad as well as good so you have to know what you are doing AND be willing to cull - wh/ merely might mean S/N the faulty ones not put them down). Some of these are: Inbreeding Father/daughter mother/son grandfather/grandaughter or a 2-2 half brother/half sister ( And board don't get your panties in a twist about the SV not allowing a 2-2. They have many many times in the history of the breed). Linebreeding a 2-3 which is usually Uncle/niece tends to be a very strong breeding and that animal will tend to produce the family type even when taken to an outside line. Little less potent but still effective in setting type is a 3-4 linebreeding and it's a little safer than a closer linebreeding. I personally love study the "brews' some of the master breeders of the past concocted. You can often see how they judicously use some of these tight linebreedings to establish a trait and then take that animal out to fresh blood. Up until the 60's the SV made a point of ensuring there were "off" lines that could be brought back in to reinvigorate the genome. This practice appears to have ended just prior to or during the Martin brother era tho some individual breeders still will try to maintain lines that give diversity to the "popular" ones.

One last reminder. All this is only so much whoha unless you have good information about the dogs and the lines and the traits they possess , express and pass on and how those traits affect what YOU are looking for. Hope this helps.

Wow I'm gonna have to read that when I'm less tired. 

Very good post though. 

VKFGSD....i read some on a different thread you posted and you seem to know alot about how to read pedigrees, would you mind having a look at my pup's? i don't mind helpful critique, i just want  to learn what i can.... all i really know so far is that he is working line, and some DDR i guess?

Boss Von Hogg Phelps pedigree information