Re-establishing bloodlines - Page 1

Hello,

I am just curious as to how would one go about reestablishing lost bloodlines. I read an article which I found very interesting. It discussed bloodlines of the past and of today. It stated "The late 1960's and early 1970's saw what was then regarded as the 5 major German Shepherd bloodlines; Hero vom Lauerhof, Marko vom Cellerland, Mutz von der Pelztierfarm, Canto von der Wienerau and Quanto von der Wienerau." It goes on to show how three of the lines continued the lineages of the top german shepherds we see today. The two that were lost were the darker pigmented of the five which more than likely carried the black gene and also would be great alternative bloodlines.

If the need for alternative blood has been seen by all for the showline shepherd why won't breeders bring these lost lines back? Its clear that these lost lines have made their way in the west german working lines. These lines could potentially serve as the solution to the problem with less than favorable pigment and the limited amount of outside blood.

I have desparately wanted to see well bred solid black and bi colors showlines shepherds like those of Bernd Lierberg and Frei von der Gugge. But how is it possible to get that back with their blood no longer being prevalent in the showlines? I believe this female http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/pedigree/119377.html encompasses the pedigree of the lost/alternative blood so needed. But as you can see she is no longer in existance and can be of no assistance to bringing those lines back because her breeding were not to pure west german showline  males but to DDR males. I actually owned a great granddaughter of hers http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/pedigree/119388.html who produced a nice litter with Mambo vom Thuringer weg.

Anway I was just wondering how could new blood be brought to the showline shepherd; Blood that would produce the dark pigment, good workability, trainability, large healthy litters? Would crossing DDR blood prove beneficial? I say DDR blood because the DDR dog has great workability and trainability and from my research tend to be very healthy and also have very good structure for a dog not bred stricktly for beauty purposes.

Any feed back? Sorry for such a long post.

Ps I know I maybe putting myself out there to get eaten alive but I would just like others opinion. I am a big fan of the showlines. As of right now I own a gorgeous female http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/pedigree/480324.html a nice male http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/pedigree/122909.html.

Thanks

If anyone is interested in the article http://www.germanshepherdforum.com/indexbrartic.htm

Interestingly enough, the Bramberg kennel (formerly an DDR kennel that switched to WGR showlines after the wall came down) has been doing exactly that - they have been crossing back into the DR lines again for stronger pigment and health and temperament I'm sure. You can see a few of their dogs here:

http://www.vom-beerenhof.de/html/verkauf.html

And the Grafental kennel has also crossed WGR show and DDR lines quite a bit.

You are so right altostland. I know i have been posting my crazy theories on here about crossing west german show with DDR, but I honestly feel its the solution for inbred west german showline and maybe even for the DDR dog because I am beginning to see a lot of inbreeding in those lines also. Maybe breeding back to w.g. showlines will put the actual standard saddle markings back in the DDR lines and improve upon their already pretty good structure. I know that the progeny of the a wg show and DDR would not prepoten sires and dams but it would add genetic diversity and health. The resulting structure, whether it is good or just decent, could be stabilized if bred back to a dog of excellent structure.

Vom Odland did it with their U litter. I would breed my wgshowline female to him in a heartbeat if his temperament is good. I just see the potential. http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/pedigree/507123.html This particular male's strucutre isn't best but he is heterozygous for the showline and DDR line structures. If bred back to a showline You will get more dogs with the showline structure and you can keep improving from there and these dogs will carry very good alternative blood.

I think its worth a try to save our breed.

Some very interesting reading for a beginner... Thanks for posting the links...

I would like to get others feedback please don't let this thread die.

"Maybe breeding back to w.g. showlines will put the actual standard saddle markings back in the DDR lines and improve upon their already pretty good structure"

How would changing the markings of DDR line improve that line?  Rather cosmetic, isn't it?  And subjective.  After all, one of attibutes of the DDR dogs is their rich dark pigment.  Breeding to WGR Show lines would just dilute the pigment.  I happen to like black sable pigment.  Why does every GSD need a saddle?

As far as their "pretty good structure"... well I personally would not like to see roached backs and squatting rears bred into those bloodlines either. 

If we want to bring back these bloodlines, then we need Sieger show Judges that will select sables, bi-colors, and blacks as Sieger and Siegerin, and not just the cookie cutter black and red type.  Furthermore, we also need to weed out the dogs with weak bitework, no matter how "pretty" they trot around the ring. 

Fred Lanting wrote a good article comparing the bitework of working dog trials and the US Sieger show.  In that article he had pictures of Max van Tiekerhook doing bitework (amazing power and grips) and then some weak gripping dogs at the Sieger show that were awarded "Pronounced" ratings despite their mediocre performance.  I don't remember on what web page I saw his article.  I'll have to Google it and see if I can find it again.

Yvette

Very true, Yvette, unfortunately. Things won't change until the judges allow them to change.

If you find that article, please post the link. I'd like to read it.

Hey Yvette,

You are right. I am not saying make the DDR be completely saddle mark, Im saying put that pattern back in there along with the sables and blacks and bicolor all of these colors are part of the GSD. As far as improving structure, Im not saying that roachbacks are prettier than straight backs I think its disgusting. But Im saying that Im sure the showline shepherd can complement the DDR as far as structure in some way maybe in front construction or something. And as far as temperament, I have been told that some DDR lines are aggressive, maybe breeding to wgshowlines might curb that and make a more liveable dog. Idk im just thinking that it would be a way to refresh and replenish both lines. Just a thought