Kirschental/Grafental Breedings - Page 3

One point to consider, however: no top dogs in either show or working circles comes from crossed lines. A cursory glance at the winners of the Sieger shows reveals pedigrees completely populated by show dogs. The top dogs at the BSP, or USA Nationals, or WDA Nationals are dogs with only working stock in their pedigrees. Back in the early days of the breed, there was no distinction between working dogs and show dogs because they were all working dogs and dogs with straight backs, moderate rear angulation, and diverse colors could and DID win V and VA scores. Since the 80's, however, no working line dog has ever won Sieger or Siegerin. There are no blacks, bi-colors, or sables getting rated VA. There are no lean mean working machines winning top notches in the show arena, or any recent crosses. The opposite holds true in the top levels of sport competition. In top "working" trials where the helpers work all the dogs with the same demanding intensity, you don't see any show line dogs anywhere close to the podium, or recent crosses. The show line breeding has split off from the original breeding stock. Just look at the pictures of the original Siegers and Sigerins on this web site. None of those old school Siegers would earn VA by today's show standards. To those who wish to cross for the improvement of the breed, go for it, have fun, and best wishes. However, I will conclude this post with a priceless quote from Dean Calderon's web site: "If you breed s**t to gold you don't get silver, you just get s**t on your gold."

And thus speaks the last word of authority. Kind of ironic, though. Aren't you the one who keeps finding fault with the working lines that you have purchased: -- "Nice black pup, but he had soft ears that never stood-9 months of my time and money down the drain." -- 10 month male (spook) sent back to Germany. (Initials KvS---won't mention the dog's name---you've already taken enough wind out of the new owner's pride.) I look at these competitions differently, I guess. A dog that continually races at a helper when it has finally sunk in that it's a GAME, just doesn't seem to have too much working for him upstairs, (IMO). Insane drives and energy might make a dog jeopardize his physical well-being, but what does that prove? It proves to me that dog is going to BE work for her owner, as opposed to just work for her owner. There comes a point when enough is enough, and if the owner isn't going to protect the dog from injury, then perhaps he should think for himself. Personally, I'd rather have a smart dog that can discern the difference between a game and real threat. At this point, proper evaluations can be made of a dog's courage. Again, IMO. As to the quote, I sure hope the "s**t" isn't supposed to be 'all show dogs', but rather 'any poor specimen (either working or show)'.

I know that Deans' quote IS in respect to any poor specimen (either working or show).

I had a wonderful working/show cross male that went back to Jello Weinerau and was Yoschy Dollwenweisse grandson. He had very striking color and very intense drive. However, the litter seemed rather inconsistent and he had siblings that at maturity looked nothing like him. I dont see anything wrong with a breeder that is EXPERIENCED with the genetics crossing lines, if the working dog in question has excellent structure and teh showline dog in question excellent temperament. Breeding polar opposites will create complete inconsistency. I think within the next few decades it may very well become necessary. Over the last few years, I have seen showline dog beseiged by a laundry list of health problems, much more so than working lines. I have seen dogs from VERY top breeders in my area with serious issues, ands while I am fairly inexperienced with the history of the genetics, one cant help but wonder if it is due to the lack of genetic diversity.

SchHBabe, While it is not the rule, look at Eiko Kirschental or his very accomplished VA3 mother Xitta Kirschental SchH3 IPO3 FH HGH. The motherline is working HGH bred to top conformation dogs. Karl also produced Pirol, sire to V Racker Itztal, one of the most accomplished dogs in the history of the BSP. Best Wishes, Jonah

kirschental ,the fullers,are top breeders and i would say this would be a great cross,if not they would not do it ,if they thought it was a good croos,then thats good enought for me.........vommeltonhaus....

Many people don't understand that when you cross the two types, you may not get what you're looking for in the first generation, or second, or third. It took several generations for the lines to go their separate ways, so you can't expect to get everything you're looking for in the first generation. You may get dogs like either parent or a cross of both (physically and mentally). Maybe you end up with unattractive dogs that don't work well, or great looking dogs that work well, or something in between. The tough part is taking the best of what you produce (if it's worth continuing) and making the next breeding decision. You have to be in it for the long haul, not just the first litter of puppies and what they may or may not win. But I think it's worth doing to enlarge the gene pool. Go back far enough in most showline dogs and it's almost completely Quanto/Canto lineage.

Many people don't understand that when you cross the two types, you may not get what you're looking for in the first generation, or second, or third. It took several generations for the lines to go their separate ways, so you can't expect to get everything you're looking for in the first generation. You may get dogs like either parent or a cross of both (physically and mentally). Maybe you end up with unattractive dogs that don't work well, or great looking dogs that work well, or something in between. The tough part is taking the best of what you produce (if it's worth continuing) and making the next breeding decision. You have to be in it for the long haul, not just the first litter of puppies and what they may or may not win. But I think it's worth doing to enlarge the gene pool. Go back far enough in most showline dogs and it's almost completely Quanto/Canto lineage.

Many people don't understand that when you cross the two types, you may not get what you're looking for in the first generation, or second, or third. It took several generations for the lines to go their separate ways, so you can't expect to get everything you're looking for in the first generation. You may get dogs like either parent or a cross of both (physically and mentally). Maybe you end up with unattractive dogs that don't work well, or great looking dogs that work well, or something in between. The tough part is taking the best of what you produce (if it's worth continuing) and making the next breeding decision. You have to be in it for the long haul, not just the first litter of puppies and what they may or may not win. But I think it's worth doing to enlarge the gene pool. Go back far enough in most showline dogs and it's almost completely Quanto/Canto lineage.

LMH, no offense taken at your response. You are indeed correct that I will not tolerate a faulty dog, regardless of pedigree, or potential scores. In fact, I agree with you that a dog that is purely prey-driven, and redlining on drive to the point that it cannot think straight is not an ideal dog. That was the case of the 2nd SchH dog that I owned - a pure prey monster with insufficient defense. He made a great picture on the SchH field due to his high prey drive, and probably would have earned high scores, but I'm not in it for the points alone. If someone wants to cross lines, that is their own choice, and genetic diversity is beneficial to the breed. However, I stand by the facts that I have presented... that the top dogs on either show or working trials are not recent crosses. Sorry, but that's just the truth for recent years. I do not support the notion that a breeder needs to cross showlines into working lines to get a "beautiful" dog, or one with "correct structure". Working line dogs can and do get V titles (my pup's sire is V, kkl1), and "beauty" is far too subjective. There indeed ARE show dogs with drive, power, and ability. Pity they don't get the attention they deserve. At my SchH club one of my buddies has a show male that can put a fine chomp on the helper - but alas, the owner has doubts that her male will be taken seriously in show circles because she's been told his back is "too straight". Pity indeed! A fine show dog with good working ability but his back is straight instead of roached, and thus is snubbed.