Kirschental/Grafental Breedings - Page 2

As said in The German Shepherd book by Ernest Hart. Two separate linebreed/inbreed lines concentrating on specific characteristics that will eventually lead to the degaradation of that certain line CAN Be Saved by simply outcrossing it...making sure the individuals are COMPLIMENTARY of each other and NOT extremes or else they will just produce extremes and nothing will be accomplished...But if the resulting Complimentary breeding is done in order to enhance certain characteristics, the said breeding will bring HYBRID VIGOR. It's nice to hear people still striving for a better world for our dogs (the Golden Middle)...Not just breeding for extremes to BREED for MONEY... Dogs depend on man to sustain him and feed him...now what do you see??? People depending on dogs...breeding for their worth...training for their worth...without their dogs to feed these people, they're just temporary improvement as what Max Stephanitz (When he mentioned about breeding dogs only for the shutzhund Sport) I hope people with the exteme mentality be the ones that will be culled...

P.S. when I mentioned about the temporary improvements... this is when Max mentioned about breeding over sharped dogs that may do good in tests but later degrade in temperament...When he was mentioning "BREEDING for the VANITY of the SUBSEQUENT buyer..."

Let me preface my following commment by saying that I HAVE bred my DDR males to WGR females, showline even. But I think there are a lot of purists (I have to confess that I AM one) and the straight lines are much easier to market. And just because one of the big-name kennels did something is not necessarily an indicator that it's a good thing. It may have been an experiment that worked for them, or didn't... Another factor is that outcrossing from the showlines has been done by some poeple, trying to weed out problems in the lines, like EPI and Mega-E, Cardiac stenosis, etc. They're don't want to start over with lines that are free of these things, but prefer to try to breed it out. I'm not criticizing their choice.. just commenting.

Great comment altostland. The post was not meant to be taken as "Kirschental and Grafental" did it so why not everyone do it. I was just wondering as to why would some very accredited and successful kennels do it, if it was such a "no no" and also I was just wondering if anyone disagreed with these kennels practices and why or if others agreed with WGR showline/East german cross.

"Regarding genetic diversity, it is counter to the purpose of the breeder which is to produce consistent type and quality. Best Wishes, Jonah" Johah, I think you missed the whole point of my post. Too much inbreeding weakens the line. This is a scientific fact, whether you are talking dogs or Mendel's famous pea plants. An outcross MUST be done every few generations to maintain the vigour of the line. Whether this outcross is to working dogs, or another line of German show dogs is the breeder's choice. Of course, the breeder desiring less genetic diversity in his dogs will chose the latter. And regarding the AKC dogs, I can't agree with you on the diversity of colours. Every single GSD at Westminister this year was a black and red/tan with a black blanket. The other colours may get shown, but I don't see them winning. And the last time I looked at the standard, pale, washed-out colours and blues and livers were still serious faults. Re. the judging, Moses confesses that Dallas often got judged more fairly in Group than in Specialty classes. Sounds like SOMEBODY was reading the breed standard, and not just going by the latest 'fashion' of what's deemed acceptable in the showring!

Correction to my post here: it was gimmie10 who made the comment on the diversity of colour in AKC dogs.

Point take Sunsilver. To continue further on genetics to me chosing another line of german show dogs does not suffice as enough diversity. I feel that just because the same dog is not repeated twice in the first five generations still doesnt mean there is enough diversity. The reason i say this is because if you go back to the sixth or seventh generation you may see Jeck or Zamb so many times and both of them are Odin progeny. Those generation maybe far back but when you have a dog repeated so many times its begins to add up. Thats just what I think. Is it actually possible to breed to a dog that does not have the same dog in at least the first six or seven generations?

i believe that mixing the 2 lines has to start- more sooner- then later. IMO the show lines are being ruined slowly but surely by the americans. NOT ALL OF THEM!!!!, but enough of them to start to worry!!! too soft in protection and are becoming very over angulated.(i saw a puppy that was of german lines at a show last month and this dogs rear looked EXACTLY like an AMERICAN shepherd,it was all over the place,it could hardly walk!!!people were asking me what was wrong with it..that's not good!!!) show lines are nothing like they were just 10-15 years ago. back then they were very strong in protection,and their structure, to my eye, was not as "extreme" as it is now. i have 2 show line males one is a mark vom haus beck grandson and he isn't playing games when it's time to protect!his father was va-2 and he has the conformation of a v rated working line dog my yasko son, i'm not too sure about.(in protection) i believe that he was "broken" by being trained to hard in defense. he used to bite,then lost all confidence and would hide behind me. we train now with another trainer who has done wonders with him and he is back to biting, but he still isn't as strong as i would and think a shepherd should be. especially for REAL PROTECTION, not for schutzhund points. i see nothing wrong with mixing working lines with a good hard confident show line, and think more people should start.as long as there conformation is correct,i believe that is what the public want as pets. if i could find a show line breeder that would breed to my ddr/czech female, i would do it in a heartbeat! it's just getting the 2 sides to see that there is a problem, and it will be unfixable in the very near future which will be heartbreaking for everyone who really cares about this breed and then it will be to late to mix them. they will be like mixing 2 different breeds. this is JMO.i know i am exaggerating,and i hope i am wrong! Dawn

Dawn, You are absolutely correct that the last 10 years have been bad for the GSD, but I believe that the problem lies in Germany. The VA groups in recent years have become progressively more angulated, larger, longer, less well pigmented, less able to work. There are still excellent dogs, but many of questionable overall merit have been receiving top ratings. Best Wishes, Jonah

I had a ddr/show cross- Bodo Quando lines.Awesome ball drive tracking temperment inteligence.I'd love to get another one.I've been looking for a while and could use some suggestions,where to look.Appreciate any help.