EPI question - Page 1

Remmi's weight has always been an on/off  problem.  She is very active and is not a big eater when fed twice a day.  I have started free feeding and she is gaining weight. My question is this: if a dog has EPI do they have the capability to gain weight in particular muscle? She hasn't been diagnosed with it or anything but I worry because she really doesn't have the amount of muscle that other dogs I see on websites.  I can try to post a picture but I have no clue how to stack, so I don't know how helpful it would be. I take her for a mile run next to my bike almost every day, we go for2 or 3 hour hikes a few days a month and I haven't gone jogging lately put when I do she goes with me (only 11/2-2 mi- three or four days/week-hey gimme a break I'm 45!). Not to mention the mischief she gets into with the kids and chasing off planes at any height.

So, I'm just wondering if I should be encouraged by her weight gain on the free feeding or if it's not relevant to the epi issue. And her poops are good and firm. Not overly large. If that factors in.

Thanks in advance,

dawg

Hey buddy,If her poops are normal and formed it may not be EPI cause when it is you will know cause the poops are always loose or liquid,and steady weight loss.Have you ruled out parasites?If you get a container from your vet with the preservative in it,you can collect stool over a 4-or-5 day period so that nothing is missed as it can sometimes happen.Im not sure if your dog even needs this but some dogs benefit from both digestive enzymes and probiotics since the GSD is notorious for digestive issues such as malabsorbtion.Also,could it be that she needs a little more food,especially if she is very active.I have 2 showlines and 1 is lean,lean ,lean and the other 1 i have to be very carefull to monitor his weight cause of the drive differences.Also sometimes you have to just be patient till they mature (not sure how old).If free feeding works and does'nt affect the other dogs,why not just do that as it sounds like that is working.I hope your girly is ok and i hope this has been of some help. Domenic

Allaboutthedogs, Send me a photo of your dog. From your information posted here it does not sound at all like EPI is an issue with your dog. In general, free feeding is not a great idea, but since you run her daily (which I would NOT do), you may need to feed her more. You do not say how old the dog is. Email me with information on her, what you feed, a photo etc., and perhaps I can help you. If her stools are formed and firm and not light colored, she is unlikely to have any malabsorption problem. Some dogs are more muscular than others, and dogs do not develop fully until they are older. Some dogs never are muscular and it is their body type, just like with humans. schwarzenberggsd@earthlink.net

Dawg, the real EPI is a genetically transmitted disease (or at least thats' what most of the researchers believe). It affects the Pancreas and can be treated. However other things can MIMIC EPI. For example a high fat diet can cause an irritation of the pancreas and the symptoms are the same. Chocolate will do it also. The difference is that it is not permanent. If your dog has formed stools and is not LOSING weight, I really seriously doubt that she has EPI. If she recently had a bout with something that made you think it was EPI, it may just have been a pancreatic irritation caused by something else. Monitor her weight, make sure she's not losing weight for a period of time and monitor her stools. It does sound like she's active so maybe try a little bit more food and see how she does. Some foods including Eagle Pack have probiotics in them which help those pancreatic irritations.

Some of the dogs whose pix you look at are worked a lot, not just walked and jogged. Especially the show dogs are worked specifically to build muscle. The working lines dogs often have less hair and are often kept leaner so you see the contours better in the pix, giving the appearance of more muscle, but when you meet them in person they are actually rather lean. Then there are some dogs who are just naturally more muscular than others, same as with people. Some dogs are late bloomers and won't really fill out til they are 3 or 4. Jogging and cycling alone will not bulk up the dog, it will make the muscles flat and lean. Look at a human, the runners body (long distance) is not bulky. A sprinter needs more strength and is therefore bulkier. People who condition their dog for a show for example do specific exercises, give supplements, feed certain foods and at certain times, work with resistence, build both strength and endurance. For the average dog none of that is necessary really. If digestion is ok and she is overall healthy then there is nothing to worry about. Digestive enzymes are always a good idea. And the right food. Try Eaglepack. It has digestive enzymes in it. Start with Original Adult and see how she does on it. Since I don't know your dogs age, I cannot recommend anything else right now. If she is older the Original may be too rich, and then you can try the Natural. Also, if she is not eating enough but accepts food as a reward, and you happen to have access to an enclosed green area, try spreading her food on the lawn as if you would with chickenfeed and let her search for it. Gives her something to do, works her senses, makes her more content so she should settle down a bit the rest of the time, and you should be able to up the amount gradually because as she is searching she is forgetting how much she is eating and once she has caught on to how much fun it is will most likely eat what is there. Studies have shown that leaner dogs live longer. So if she regulates herself and stays naturally lean, it is not be such a bad thing.

My last dog was PTS with this disease. This does not sound at all like it. Natural enzyne production in a normal dog has a reading of between 7 and 30. Less is considered EPI. If the reading is 7 it is not very eficient and at 30 the dog would take all nutrients out of a cup of food a day and be very healthy. People are built with similar systems where some can eat anything and never gain weight. The activity level of this dog is where I would look. My present dog was worked hard with double food last fall for a couple of months and lost considerable weight. To the EPI I will say for general info if the reading is 2 or less enzyme supplements will not be enough to save your dog. My young female had .09 which is terminal in all cases. ---Bob

Dog foods like Eaglepack that contain digestive enzymes should be taken off the market (my opinion). If a dog has a health issue that requires use of supplemental enzymes to assimilate its food, the owner needs to know about it and THEN if it needs enzyme supplementation, add the enzymes. A correct and healthy German Shepherd dog should NOT require special additives to its food to maintain its weight. This is supposed to be a hardy, working breed, not one that could not exist without "designer foods" and supplements. Masking symptoms of EPI and other digestive disorders until a dog has already reproduced only serves to perpetuate such problems in the breed (unwittingly by many owners). To the original poster, if your dog is having trouble maintaining its weight, seek proper veterinary advice and know the REASON before adding enzymes and other things to try and "fix" the problem. Some dogs do go through brief periods of time where they have some difficulty maintaining weight and they eventually outgrow it. Even this, though, is sometimes genetically based and at minimum we should know which dogs have this tendency WITHOUT masking it by use of enzyme supplemented foods. Hodie may be able to look at some pictures and give you more specific advice, but please don't just mask symptoms if your dog has a problem. Identify the problem (if indeed there really is one) and treat it specifically. Diane Seaman

The only definitive way to diagnose EPI is with a blood test called a TLI. Texas A&M's lab is the recognised authority on this ailment. A companion test is usually given at the same time for folate and cobalamin (B12) levels. If these are too high or low respectively, it can indicate small intestine bacterial overgrowth (SIBO) which is often a secondary cause of weight loss and loose stools. If EPI is determined, the only way to control it is to add enzymes to your dog's food to replace what she does not produce naturally. Good luck with your dog.

I would have the TLI test. They can actually have firm bowel movements even when they have EPI. My last dog did. If it is EPI, the dog actually will starve to death. It doesn't really sound like it, but the condition is so serious that I would have it done just for peace of mind, if you can't figure out what is wrong. The major labs in the country can do- ANTECH, and I can't remember the other one. Just make sure she is fasted for 12 hours before the test- Good luck, Theresa

Diane, I agree with you 100%. IF food manufacturers continue to add digestive enzymes, probiotic bacteria etc., then all will be lost in trying to identify dogs who have some sort of malabsorption problem. I personally believe that this EPI term is a catch all for a variety of things that may not be working correctly in an affected dog. If it is a recessive gene at fault, in fact, if the dog does not have recessives from both parents one would be able to explain the wide variation in enzyme detection levels. In dogs and humans, recessive genes often code for enzymes and mean enzymes are faulty or not produced at all. But it is a common misconception that BOTH parents needed to have contributed a faulty copy of the gene and this is not the case. In any case, malaborption problems RARELY require that a dog be put down. They can be successfully treated IF the real problem is identified. As you mention, if people THINK their dog has an issue, they should be getting a proper diagnosis and then treating. Unfortunately, in my experience, all too many vets are not terribly knowledgeable on this particular problem and it can often be a missed diagnosis or an improper diagnosis. SIBO exists commonly with this problem but can exist alone too or with high parasite burdens. TLI values do not seem to be completely predictive either as dogs with low levels may not be symtomatic, and dogs with good values may be. But this is why I will not recommend Eagle Pack. It is hiding these problems, long before most people know they have an issue. Of course, any breeder worth his/her salt should also know when there is an issue, but this type of problem often shows up after the dog has been long ago sold. Even so, when told, too many breeders ignore the problem altogether.