Is "failing to out" nature or nurture? - Page 1

I'm new to Schutzhund and GSDs for the most part and promise not to ask too many stupid questions. At this stage, I am still trying to learn as much as I can about buying "my GSD". Just putting a lot of time into researching everything before I get started with a puppy. I enjoy reading the posts even though half the time I am a bit lost. 3 questions I have, all related to "outing": how big of a deal is it for a dog to not release - - will this behavior typically pass along to her progeny? Is this usually the reason for a dog only to be titled at the Sch 1 level and no higher? If the dam is known for this fault, is it best to steer clear of her litters for fear of getting a pup with the same fault, or is this a learned fault and not hereditary?

Failure to out is, in my opinion, a fault in training. Of course, some dogs are more serious than others, but I have dogs and have seen dogs with all kinds of temperaments and, as with other obedience commands, the out should be obeyed. If one trains this correctly, it does not matter about "nature", the dog will out. Personally, I start using the out with the ball or tug and it is easily transferred to the sleeve. Sometimes I have to polish it a bit to get quicker releases, clean outs without bothering the helper etc., but the dogs all out, even the highest drive, more serious dogs. It is a big deal in the sense that failure to out can mean failure in trial or show.

HI -- TO RESPOND TO YOUR QUESTIONS -- IT IS A BIG DEAL .. AVERY VERY BIG DEAL FOR A DPG NOT TO OUT --- PHILOSPHICALLY -- LET ME PUT A QUESTION TO YOU IF I MIGHT --- WOULD YOU LIKE A DOG ON YOUR ARM , LEG , OR BODY BITING AND NOT OUTING WHEN TOLD ?? YES IT IS A VERY BIG DEAL .. OK NEXT -- BEHAVIORS TRAITS ARE PASSED ON BY BOTH DAM AND SIRE BUT FIRST THE DOG MUST HAVE THE GENETIC MAKE-UP TO WANT TO DO BITEWORK AND ENJOY IT TOO. SO YOU MUST SEE KNOW STRESS LEVEL OF THE PARENTS AND LOOK AT [ ALTHOUGH I REALLY DON'T LIKE USING THIS WORD BUT I THINK YOU WILL GET THE IDEA ]THE DRIVE -- YOU WANT TO ALSO CHECK THE TEMPERAMENT MEANING IS THE DOG SOFT OR HARD , AND LOOK AT THE AGRESSION EXHIBITED , IS IT HIGH OR LOW IN IT'S AGRESSION DOING THE WORK ..--- THESE ARE IMPORTANT BECAUSE MANY TRAINERS DON'T SEE THESE IN THE DOG AND THEN GO AHEAD AND TRAIN WITH A SO CALLED METHODOLOGY .. WHICHH BRINGS ME TO YOUR THIRD INQUIRY-- MANY DOGS [ DAMS TOO ] WON'T OUT BECAUSE ... THE OUT SIMPLY WASN'T TAUGHT CORRECTLY !! EMPHASIZED HERE .. CORECCTLY [ AT LEAST FOR THAT PARTICUALR DOG !!]. SOME DOGS DON'T OUT BECAUSE THEY LACK THE STRESS LEVEL AND IT IS LOIKE A FIGHT --IF YOU HAVE SOMEONE IN A HEAD LOCK AND YOU ARE THE WEAKER AND YOU WILL GET YOUR BUT KICKED -- WELL WOIULD YOU LET GO ?? THEN AGAIM SOME DOGS WON'T OPUT BECAUSE THEY ARE VERY HARD AND HIGHLY AGGRESSIVE AND ACTUALLY GET JOY IN TAKING THE HELPER DOWN , THOSE DOGS NEED TO BE TAUGHT HOW TO OUT AND LEARN SELF CONTROL AT AN EARLY AGE ... MANY MANY TRAINERS BELIEVE OR WAIT TO LONG THEN THEY HAVE TO CONTROL THE DOG .. WELL SOME OFD THOSE DOGS HAVE DIIFCULTY AT THAT POINT NOT OUTING .. GREAT DOG .. FOOLISH OR INEXPERIENCED TRAINER!! SO IN SUMMERY THE GENTTICS AND THE TRAINING /ENVIRONMENT ARE EQUALLY IMPORTANT. SO IF YOU SEE A DAM NOT OUT , THE QUESTION REALLY IS -WHY- FIRST .. MAY HAVE BEEN A GREAT DOG .. OR NOT SO GOOD ONE

Failure to out is due to poor training. It is not genetic and is not a trait that will passed along to any off spring. The trainer will pass it along if he or she trains the same way. It is a big deal as far as Schutzhund or International Prufungs Ordnung (IPO) You cannot even get the lowest SchH or IPO title (i.e SchH1 or IPO1) if your dog fails to out. The reason most dogs fail to out is fear of losing their prey item, the sleeve. At an early age, a dog should be taught, preferably when playing with a toy, long before it ever sees a protection field, that giving up its prize only brings the opportunity to chase it again and play tug or war and have more fun.

Although I believe there are dogs who want to relinquish their prize way less than others which is part of their temperament and thus related to genetics, the out itself(or lack thereof) is a training issue, just like Gertrude B says above......

I think that the PROPENSITY for the fight, the possession, the joy in the work, is genetic -"nature" - but that training or "nuture" must be correct in order to guide that nature to the chosen goal of obedience and out when directed...

I would not dismiss not outing as a training issue. A good confident dog which works with clear head, will have no problem outing. The training becomes more of an issue when there is an issue with temperament. If someone has trained a dog to the level of title and dog won?t out I would look close at temperament because on a good dog the out is not a tricky thing to teach. Also is issue when dog will not stay on the sleeve.

I have to agree with everyone here. The issue is, it could be a training problem, and as some stated it could be a temperament or nerve problem. I really feel it could be genetic as a dog that has a nerve/temperament issue could have 100% security in the grip and not like to stand and face the helper alone. So no out, I am safe on the grip!! Or it could be crappy training!!!! Hate to ask, Working or show lines?????

fred and hundguy -- you both show understanding !! many people really miss the point -- of course temperament , which is genetic plays a role -- it does in all behaviors -- also .. some people alluded to this on the site - that you must show that it is the dog's best interest to out .. protection IS obedience .. but how DO YOU define obedience -- some people here are really meaning Compliance , wich to me IS NOT obedience .. NO NO NO NO !! YOU DO NOT CONTROL the dog in trianing --- i think that is awful awful awful training ! -- you must teach the dog to be successful in it's goals and that part and parcel means teaching it to have self control -- the dog works best in protection and obedience and from whence the behavior comes from is the dog's will and desire / motivation [ which is in reality what you want to begin with ..you have taught the dog positvely that it is to it's advantage to follow your direction ] .. self onfidence , the stress the dog can handle , the asssuredness the pack drive sort to speak of , come from it's make up /gernetics... i have trained many a dog , very hard and extreme drive[ the amke up /temperament] -- that is genetics ... i have seen others train similar dogs that won't out ... they are full of themselves / hard /aggresive .. that is there make-up -- thier genes thier temperament ... but to me these are the easiest dogs to teach the out -- simple --they tend to be confident , independent , good stress levels , self assured. I just teach the dog that it can bite again , fight again , chase again .. just for the pure love of the bite ... and there again , the love to bite has a genetic base to ... the love to chase and bite is gentetic based ..the degree of defensiveness is gemetic based ...so - Both trianing and genetics are involved in the out .

T-bone, in every litter you get a wide variety of temperaments and abilities. Just like you and your siblings if you have any, or at least first cousins are very different in these areas. A very tough dam/sire can produce a very whimpy puppy. How a pup is raised also plays a big role. A lot can be messed up in the time before training starts in earnest. To your questions: how big of a deal is it for a dog to not release It is a big deal. If your dog does not out it will fail the SchH trials. At the beginning of this year new SchH rules have been implemented that doubled the penalties for not outing. In addition you are allowed three commands at each exercise, after that your dog will get disqualified. But if you need repeat commands every time, points will drop like crazy and you would have a hard time reaching a passing score. will this behavior typically pass along to her progeny? If you would selectively breed for this specific trait on both sides of the pedigree you might see a stronger tendency in follow up generations. Just because one dog does not out, it cannot be called genetic. On the contrary - since the SV breeds only with dogs that show the ability to out well enough during the trials so that the dog gets a passing score, one could argue that there is selective breeding towards that trait (outing). There are some lines that are harder, are less likely to out etc. Such dogs are harder to control and need a handler with a much higher level of experience. Such dogs are not recommended for a newbie to the sport! The level of obedience and control depends on experience of handler and how well a handler can train and handle a potentially difficult dog. In some cases the dog was not trained properly to out from the start, or at some time during training could have had a weak handler that the dog took advantage of. Once a dog has had success at a self rewarding behaviour (its mine and stays mine, yeah), re-training can be difficult. Is this usually the reason for a dog only to be titled at the Sch 1 level and no higher? With some dogs not outing may be such a problem that their current handler cannot train and trial them to a higher level. A more experienced handler may well trial such a dog at higher levels. Males are usually titled to SchH3, while females often start a breeding career after SchH1 and rarely if ever return to the SchH sport.