civil aggression in dogs - Page 1

I KNOW A VERY PREY-ORIENTED DOG WHO WE ARE TRYING TO BRING OUT CIVIL AGGRESSION FOR SCHUTZHUND ETC. THE DOG HAS GONE FROM RUNNING UP TO A HELPER AND DOING A HOLD AND BARK AND GOOD COURAGE TEST--OBVIOULSY FOCUSED ON GETTING THE SLEEVE ALONE. WE PUT SOME PRESSURE ON HER AND SHE IS NOW AVOIDING GOING TO THE HELPER--SHE WALKS AWAY/AVOIDANCE AND IT ALL STARTED BY TRYING TO GET HER TO VIEW THE HELPER AS A REAL THREAT. ANY SUGGESTIONS ON BEST WAY TO BRING OUT CIVIL AGGRESSION OR HELP HER THROUGH AND HELP HER NOW SELF START AND GO TO THE HELPER AGGRESSIVELY..

This is tough to give advise on without seeing the issue itself. YOu and your group have to be honest with yourselves. Have you done this type of work with other dogs with success or are you doing it for the first time? Many a dog has gotten screwed up by inexperiece and too much pressure too soon. I would back things up to all grip work being done in a non-challenging/non-aggressive manner from the decoy. Do this for several sessions until confidence is restored. Then slowly add pressure. This type of work has to be done in short sessions with the dog winning. YOur decoy/helper MUST recognize changes in your dog when pressure is applied. We often do this type of work by introducing the hidden sleeve if equipment orientation is an issue. Good Luck, Kyle

Well you might just go back to prey work easy sessions.You might have to do this for some time to get the dog back to were she was before. It sounds to me you pushed her to far and now you have avodience. There is the possibility she will never have defense aggression .And if it is not there trying to bring it out will do more harm then good.How old is the dog.BOB Winski

SHE IS 2 1/2 YEARS OLD. DURING THE SESSION, HOWEVER, SHE WORKS NOT BAD. SHE HAS A REAL HARD TIME GETTING STARTED AND AVOIDANCE AT THE BEGINNING, BUT IF PRESSED BY THE HANDLER SHE GETS INTO IT AND ONCE THE HELPER PUTS PRESSURE AFTER A COUPLE MINUTES...SHE IS PRETTY GOOD(SHOWS CIVIL AGGRESSION-WILL ACTUALLY BITE YOUR LEG, ARM ETC. WITHOUT A SLEEVE). GETTING HER STARTED WHEN COMING ONTO THE FIELD IS WHERE SHE AVOIDS AND DOES NOT START UP HERSELF.

Your best bet for now may be to get with an experienced helper, to reassure the foundation. I am sorry to say that it sounds like you have been using a helper who may be good, but not a lot of experience. A helper with many years and dogs should make a seamless transition reading when and how much to push, and then how to bring up after going down.

"HARD TIME GETTING STARTED AND AVOIDANCE AT THE BEGINNING, BUT IF PRESSED BY THE HANDLER SHE GETS INTO IT AND ONCE THE HELPER PUTS PRESSURE AFTER A COUPLE MINUTES...SHE IS PRETTY GOOD" Does she have prey at all? Can her handler play tug with her? What do you mean by "pressed by the handler"? Is it possible that the avoidance could be aloof? Is she avoiding by trying to hide behind the handler. THis is difficult without seeing what's happening. Have you tried tying her out and working her in prey without handler influence. SOmetimes confident dogs take some work to get them to come out. Kyle

It is very hard to give advice on a dog without seeing it. Also terminology in the dog world seems to mean different things to different people. I found this out after working over seas contracts with people from different K-9 programs such as Customs, local police from many different states, military from Lakland Dog School ect. So lets make sure we are on the same page as far as terms. I will make them simple and non technical because it is easier for me that way. Prey/hunt drive- where the dog goes out onto the field and actively searches for the decoy or chases down the decoy. Defense drive- this is the old flight or fight. Some call it courage. But it is putting the pressure on the dog, you will get fight or you will run the dog off the field. Civil aggitation/ civil drive- dogs willingness to go after some one without a sleeve. Does not mean dog that wil bite anyone- dog that will challenge someone without equipment because commanded to do so or there actions, not necessarily threatening because you get back into defense, cause the dog to challenge them. example of strong civil - my dual purpose dog if you slipped the sleeve, he would spit it out and want to go back after the man without regaurd to what the man was doing. meaning he did not need to be acting in a threatening manner. Fear biteing- you can make any dog bite- back it into a corner, don't give it the option of escape- and it will bite anything and everything everywhere. has no choice can't escape and survival kicks in. I know some one else will come up with better definitions of this, or text boook ones or more condensed ones but this will put us talking on the same page. as stated by Kyle- having trouble getting her started, ect. sounds like a low or lack of prey drive to me also. Once the helper put pressure after a few minutes she will bite legs so forth without equipment. That is not civil aggitation. From what it sounds like you have pushed the dog from defense drive to fear biteing. Pressure on the dog- You need a expierienced helper/decoy who knows when and how much pressure to put on and when to back the pressure off. He has to be reading the signs and cues of the dog to know how much pressure he can use and when to back it off. Everyone thinks anyone can just put on a sleeve and they are a decoy, but your decoy makes or breaks your dog. If your dog is now avoiding this training then it is no longer fun for the dog. Going out to the field to bite the guy should be a fun game for the dog. If it was happy doing this before and now not, you probably pushed it over the edge. In that case lay off of it- go back to tug of war and make this a positive expierience happy one for the dog. I am curious as to how the dog was started in bite work. Was it done through play, tug of war, fun, positive expierience or was it started in defense which is the quickest way to get a dog to bite but can cause alot of problems down the road. I hope this helps, as I said try going back to basics and fun for the dog. Good Luck. Mike

EDD IN AFGAN: THANK YOU SO MUCH. YOUR EXPLANATIONS MAKE IT MUCH MORE CLEAR FOR ME. I HAVE PRINTED YOUR REPLY AND WILL USE IT AT TRAINING FOR ANALYSIS THIS FRIDAY...THANKS AGAIN

On a side note, a dog can go from prey/hunt into fight drive without going into defence. I have seen and experienced it. Usually it is with a very confident dog that loves the work/fight etc.