Working and Show - Page 1

I am a GSD lover and I am interested in getting more involved with the breed. I have read alot of posts comparing the 'working' vs 'show' GSDs. My old interpertation was conformation was show(AKC shows on TV)and SchH was 'working'. What I get from this board- working is police/protection and SchH is show. Is my interpertation correct? Are there tests or competitions for the working dogs? Why couldn't a dog do both, or can they. After reading about SchH vents, on paper it seems that the qualities of a SchH dog would be the same type of values as a 'working' dog. And why couldn't a 'working' dog do well in SchH? What are the differences that limit these dogs from doing both? Thanks! Sara

http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/bulletins_read/18228.html#18292 http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/bulletins_read/21987.html#22010 Take a look at these two threads, to get your started on your journey. Stephen

Sara, I some how opened a can of worms by bringing this subjest up, but my intentions were not to put any ones dog down. I just made a statement to seperate the two showline on one side and workingline on the other so people can look at what they prefer. I prefer the working line which are Schutzhund dogs. In my opinion the showlines are for breed for showing for looks and do not have the drive or the means to do the Sch. work which consist of tracking, obedience and protection. And the working lines are not breed for show, people for some reason seem to think that a dog is a dog and there is no difference. I have seen shows with some nice dogs in the ring and I have seen the bite work of show dogs in my opinion they do not have the bite work the working dogs have. I do not understand some of these peoples way of thinking, There may be some show dogs that can do the work of a working dog, I m not going to say that type of dog does not exist, Im saying that I have never seen one. And if the showline dog can then why aren't there more of them in the working competition???? I have not seen one working dog in shows (not that I have been to many shows) All I know is contrary to what people believe there is a difference between the two, and to know you really have to see a dog show and a Sch. trial....

Hi Oofing, SGBH steered you in the right direction. Both of the links cover your questions. Mike Worrall wrote a three part article a number of years ago on the split of the German shepherd Dog. I have a print out of the article. Very interesting reading. "Basically the split occurred approximately 30 years ago with the show judges choice of "type". With this choice of "type" the breeders followed the trend established by the judges. One obvious change is that the dogs have got steadily bigger and hehavier. Definate detriment to the working capabilities. Frei vd Gugge (all black) VA8 1969, VA7 in 1970 and V4 in 1971. He was medium sized at 63cm. If he were shown today he would be classed as small. Frei was a VA dog used in the 70's to improve temperment according to history books. This two time VA dog was then judged a V4 outside of the VA class by Dr. Rummel with the comments that he had insufficient male qualities. THrough the 1980's we can still find VA's in the second and third generation of the first three dogs at the Bundessieger. In 1992 we find that there are no VA's in the first three generations of the pedigrees of the first three placed dogs at the Bundessieger." The above is taken from a 3 part article by Mike Worrell "The choiice is yours- a German Shepherd or Malinois as a working breed? ( or is the German Shepherd finished as a working dog?), Different types of German Shepherds. Once again very intersting reading. Kyle

K9chess if the show lines "do not have the drive or the means to do the Sch. work" then how can they achieve SchH titles at all? Germany does not have enough judges who do all paper trials ;o). You do not see more show line dogs at the trials because the people's hobby and preference is the show ring, NOT the SchH field. Exactly the same reason why you do not find SchH enthusiasts more often in the show ring, only that one time they absolutely have to. You could just as well say, why are there not more working line dogs being shown at the BSZS? And the few that get shown, why are they not doing better? As it was stated in a different thread before, the dog should be able to do it, not necessarily need to have to excell in it. The SchH requirements are 70-70-70 for a passing score, and 70-70-80 in order to advance to the next level and to be eligible for the KKL. Scores in the 80s, which are good scores, often get frowned upon as not being good enough. Getting more than 80% in a test in school is a pretty good grade. But in SchH the dogs are for some reason excepted to bring home straight As only. That is hardly realistic. Please keep in mind that there IS a difference between being able to do it, and excelling at it. A show Sieger does not also have to be a protection Sieger, nor does the BSP Champion have to get a VA. That is what the Universal Sieger Title is for. Sadly those Universal dogs get HARDLY ANY recognition, or attention! The split between the working lines and the show lines was because of specialization. Which does not really represent the original concept of this breed. A preference one direction or another is perfectly fine of course, as long as you can still keep the big picture in mind. That is what some people have difficulty with. Separating personal preference from what the standard is actually asking for. A breed standard with all its requirements is a general view. You make it your own by developing your own type within the breed, which gives it the richness and diversity that we have today. Imagine you had to buy one cookie-cutter type shepherd and that was all you could choose from. I would find that terrible and the breed would most likely loose me then...

So SchH dogs are considered the working dogs and the 'show dogs' are referring to AKC conformation dogs, correct? When I read alot of the posts on this site and the thread that SGBH sent (thanks), it seemed that there were 1.working (Police, Protection, SAR), 2.conformation (AKC ring work), and 3.SchH (which I thought they were referring to as 'show' dogs on this site). Am I straight now? Thanks! Sara

Sara, the dogs we usually refer to on this site are West German bred dogs, not AKC show dogs. ALL dogs bred in Germany have to have at least a SchH1 title in order to be eligible for breeding, they also need a show rating, among a few other things. The german show line dogs still need to be able to do the work. Some may not do it as well as the working lines that do little else. That is what some people have an issue with.

Not this again , Man wake up people . The ? was what is a Show line and what is a Woking line ? The Red and balck are show lines , here is a link to one http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/pedigree/71.html Most balcks , Sables, Black Sable , Bi- Black and Tan are working lines . All Dogs Have to do schH work to breed. Here is a link to the working line GSD http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/pedigree/393197.html As far as what I think I LOVE THE WORKING LINES ! Most show lines just pass by on the schH work , I feel that to breed to the dog it has to be the best . DRIVES CONFIDENCE COURAGE , conformation , Thats why I am taking 13 100% Working Lines to the 2006 USA Sieger show . I cant wait to show you all SHOW LINE FANS HOW A GSD IS TO WORK . AND LOOK LIKE TAKE A LOOK AT HOW THE BREED LOOKED WHEN IT STARTED , NOT LIKE THE WEST GERMAN SHOW LINES ! THEY WAS WOKING LINES ! Scrol down the page and take a look people . http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/siegershow_winners.html I do not feel that Max would like what the show breeders have done with his breed ! Thanks Buy a show dog for show not schutzhund , Buy a WORKING LINE DOG FOR TOP SPORT < REAL WORK < Thanks Timothy Helser www.spd-k9.com

Hey Tim are you serious about taking 13 working line dogs to this years (2006) USA sieger show? If you are... GREAT JOB! maybe you can talk to the owners of Galant z Pohranicni straze to bring him along too. Hes very gorgeous.

Actually the first GSDs looked more like the Malinois look today... and while good ol' Max was still alive the shepherd already took on the form more in the direction of what we see today, than the original Malinois look. K-9 Helser, nice piece of self-promo. Admirable intentions, question is: will you play fair? Will you present a fair and complete picture of your dogs and participate in ALL parts of the show or JUST want to put on a flashy "look here" performance in the bite work, and ignore the show part? This will ONLY be a fair presentation of your dogs abilities if you ALSO take the time and train each dog for the show part and make sure each dog is presented to the best of its ability all the way through. We shall see how much ring training your dogs have had in addition to the protection training when you get there, or if it was all protection and little else. Who know, if you really try to do it all you just may be tooting another tune afterwards. Anyone can shine at just one portion of the whole. Remember its a show, and you need at least a G, or else the bite work... was for nothing. Will we see these dogs at the SchH Nationals as well? Or are they just good enough to compete against show dogs ;o) (sorry just couldn't help it, no harm intended).