Got screwed - Page 2

Saoa writes: 1) Is there a contract: read the contract - if you don't like it OR the breeder refuses to provide a contract UPFRONT, yet states the contract will be shipped with the pup: *************************************************** THERE WILL NEVER BE SUCH AN INSTRUMENT WHEN YOU BUY A DOG IN GERMANY. Geez, understand folks on the western side of the Atlantic. Checklist be damned, THERE ARE NO SUCH CONTRACTUAL INSRUMENTS or agreements like this when you purchase a dog in Germany. Most of the time you don't even get a receipt. Get over it, if you plan on importing dogs from across the Atlantic. There are risks involved with each puppy and most of the time(hopefully for everyone)all will go as planned and you will have a top notch animal. In those rare cases you get a puppy that is abnormal, you are stuck with it. If you get one of those rare puppies that turn out to be VA or Sieger/Siegerein, you are stuck with that(a Blessing) also. Get over the "I will sue", "I want a guarentee in life", mentality. Life is life, full of valleys and peaks. ACCEPT THAT TRUTH!!!!

Yes, there is a EU pet lemon law. No, it does not include everything, such as HD for example. If a breeder breeds with healthy dogs, and in case of HD, dogs that have been screened for HD, it is assumed that the breeder did all he could do, since he cannot control nature. And some genetic conditions or predispositions may or may not make an appearance later in life due to outside influences. So, the chances of the pups owner to have a successful case are slim, unless he could prove that either of the parents also had the same condition and were bred despite of it. Slim chance of finding that out. Also, according to SV rules, if a dog has several owner, only ONE has signing authority. Very simple solution for the pups owner is to contact the SV (akc@schaeferhunde.de - english speaking contact, her name is Sabine) and inquire about the litter and the pup and what the hold up is. If the breeder is in breach of anything the SV will let the pups owner know if and what action should be taken. All the SV can do though is in regards to the breeders membership, everything else is a civil matter. Also, before doing anything as final as neutering, always consult a different, unrelated vet for a second opinion! When you do that, do NOT mention the previous diagnosis, let the second vet make one on his own, then decide what action to take.

Thanks DH, I had trouble finding my way around the SV site for an email address. And thanks for clearing up the Co-owner issue. The breeders English is not the best, so either I misunderstood or she's full of crap. Regards, Melanie

Saoas check list would make sense in a perfect world, except that hardly a German breeder would sell you a pup if they had to jump through all those hoops. Buying a pup is never a sure thing. Things can go wrong, that is the nature of dealing with living, breathing beings. Hardly anyone would check all that is checked with the GSDs with a future spouse they may plan to have a baby with... As for paperwork, stuff can happen. In general, no average German breeder will set out with an intent to screw someone. The odd out out that can be found anywhere in the world may have a short run at it until they have the law on their heels and have to go into hiding. The majority of breeders are there to stay. The odd cases where things to wrong get beaten to death on boards like these, and the thousands!!! of cases that go smoothly never get much attention. In the big scheme of things, importing is very safe. If in doubt, go with an importer that has a good reputation, at least until you have done it a few times and feel safe enough to risk it yourself.

The lady you have been dealing with may be the person who has the dog in her physical possession, but the person with the signing authority may be a totally different person.

Yes, I agree with all that DH mentions, in a perfect world. However, my checklist, whether a breeder likes it or not, will work if you only DARE to ask those questions, and/or take it upon yourself to call or email the SV or here, the AKC. Granted, it may be bold in someone else's book, but, I'm not spending xx,000 euros & UP and not be darn sure of the facts! If it was a male stud i'm buying, he is taken to the vet for a semen ck up. A vet of my choice. Whether he comes from Europe or here. I do/did the same whenever I buy a dog from Germany. And, I make sure that dog is owned by whomever they claim. IF they're too lazy to fax me proof of ownership, then I'll move on. No problem. ;) Also bear in mind, that the German puppy market is extremely weak right now, and they're much more hard pressed to give you what you want. In Holland there certainly is a contract. I believe its the VDH contract. Germany is not the only country in Europe that breeds dogs, after all. There is Italy, who breeds very good dogs, as well as France, Norway, Holland, Sweden and Belgium. We should not forget that there are LOTS of choices so don't jump on the first pup purchase just cuz its Germany...

There is a difference whether you buy a pup or an adult, semen check won't do you much good with a male pup ;o). Even with an adult, it means nothing. A perfect semen count does not equal a fertile male. Or fertility may stop the day after. Or, or, or... Definitely no weak puppy market for good pups in Germany right now. On the contrary. Prices have been going up. The demand for quality has gone up, people get more educated and more demanding. The average, yes that has been pushed to the wayside a bit, typical for this time of year, people are strapped for money until Easter, then things will pick up again for that kind of market. That does not mean people are flogging their pups, they are just holding on to them longer, and then get more later. The SV will also NOT provide information about a dog that is not yours, due to the German privacy laws. If you have a good rapport with someone at the SV they may give you some yes or no answers and they may stretch a bit for you, but certainly not for the average Joe asking. In Holland you have the Raad van Beheer, the VDH is the German Kennel Club. Contracts are an individual matter, not something that a kennel club of a breed club will dictate. Proof of ownership can be a funny thing. Unless you have the original pedigree in hand whatever is sent as a copy means nothing. If someone want to screw you they will, any which way. Saoa, you stated in a post a long time ago that people should have the litter registration form (Wurfmeldeformular) sent to them. That is actually a form that anyone can download from the SV website and fill out. So it means nothing. And once it has been sent in, the SV has it. Keep in mind that many serious breeders are often successful business people, doctors, lawyers etc. They are proud of their dogs, who are trophies in their right, or an investment, or valuable sports equipment, in addition to pets. They have no time to deal with people who nitpick. Especially when those within driving distance come to their doorstep, say "awww - puppy!", put cash on the table and leave with a smile on their face, puppy in hand, and no hassle afterwards if puppy has a runny nose a few months later. Keep in mind that you have 80 million people alone in Germany, all within driving distance to a good pup and add few mill more form bordering countries. If you want a pup and a breeder already goes through the length of providing more info than needed for someone dropping by, and then make shipping arrangements for you etc, etc etc, if you want that then you have to be respectful on their time and how things are done locally. Given, some people get a kick out of dealing with inquiries from overseas, but some are also intimidated or overwhelmed by it. Those who really NEED to sell their pups because they have noone else to sell to, those are usually the one who will do anything, just to make the sale. A serious breeder is confident in their dogs and their pups. They will tell you what you need to know. They will be direct and sincere. They will NOT tell you what you may want to hear, but tell only you what they have to say. And the best breeders have had snags with paperwork and other issues with the SV. It happens. With a bit of patience most issues get resolved in time. And it really is not an issue about people not sending dogs or not getting dogs, that hardly happens. Usually its due to communication errors, or unrealistic expectations on the buyer side. Dogs may get sick, perfect pups may grow up to be imperfect adults, one persons interpretation of perfect, or beautiful, or top, or drivey, or whateverelse may not be the same as that of the other person, and paperwork may need a while. Simple as that. And if its not from Germany it may be just as good, but a BMW made in Spartanburgh in the US is still a Bimmer but just not quite the same, is it? :o)

I'd buy the one made in Spartanburgh.

Great post, D.H. My thought is that it has fallen on deaf ears, however. We live in a vacuum on this side of the Atlantic. We do it this way and this is the right way and the world has to adjust to our way. This same topic will be started up again in two weeks as though it were never discussed. Pass the "pink papers".

The Germans have a way of doing things. If you insult them you will never hear from them again. They have alot of pride in their dogs and breeding. As I said, it is always a risk when buying sight on seen. I agree we always hear of the bad expieriences but not the many good ones. I buy several dogs a year from Germany. I found people who I deal with that have always sold me what I wanted and have suprised me with a dog that was more than I expected, in abilities not money. My contacts in Germany have steered me away from the more expensive dog to a less expensive one if they thought it would better suite what I intended to use it for. Don't see that alot in the US. Nothing against breeders in the US as I am one also. To import or not to import is a big question and an individuals own choice. But remeber, be patient I have had papers take 6 months to get to me, but I did not worry about it or contact the owner every other week. They got there when they got there. If I ever get screwed on a dog, oh well will chalk it up to expierience and move on.