Pulling instead of Pushing Bite - Page 3

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by Juno on 24 June 2019 - 16:06

It would be good to see some of your videos but I am glad things are progressing well with you and your dog.

by Centurian on 24 June 2019 - 21:06

ohhh , Apple you are correct , I thought you weren't totally happy with your dog's bicep bite ...

by Centurian on 25 June 2019 - 12:06

I second apple's last comment. Apple that was a nice post for everyone to read .. thanks for sharing your
experiences for everyone .

I would like to add onto your post by making a statement : how can we tell the dog where to target on the bite suit ? Simply by just telling the dog . I want to re make a point , crappy , really crappy dog traing , is training by is going through the motions . One way , again one way ,and it is neither the way , a right way or the only way to tell your dog to mbite the bicep : Either on ver very well controlled leash or as Apple sdaid the dog being back tied . Hold up a bite suit , with only the bicep area such that the dog can bite and then slwoly and ACCURATELY bring together the dog 's mouth to the bicep area . When the dog is one inch from the bicep area let him get the bite . Give a bit of tension and let the dog have the bite suit. Repeat and condition . Next step : do the same , out the dog , pull back with leash tension slightly , let the dog have another bite. After the conditioning , and you know 100 % that the dog will bite the bicep when targeted , then start the same scenario but now the bite suit is worn by the decoy /helper. If you do not have a helper , then make a stand that supports the bite suit and expose only the bicep area , that is to say the dog cannot bite anything but the bicept area of the bite suit.

One of the biggest problems in teaching a dog is assuming the dog will do this or that , or wanting the dog to have masterd something yesterday. Teaching , no matter the skill of the dog ., is a step by step 100% precise preocess , no matter if it is sit , heel , bite , or whatever, Never ever do to much to fast . The biggest problem with helpers and decoys-- they don't stop and think , many times.
yogidog

by yogidog on 25 June 2019 - 13:06

For me Bicep bites is easily taught by holding both sides of the collar .bring the dogs head up to the bicep under control and calm and about 2 or 3 inches away release .I sometimes have the decoy in a sitting position I find it’s a lot easier to control and less conflict from the decoy . I only ask the dog to hold don’t care about fight I want calm full hard grips

by Centurian on 26 June 2019 - 00:06

Yogi , that is anoher way to teach the same lesson .. as long as the dog does not pull the handler holding the collar staight forward right into the decoy and the bite does not ' get set' . But what you wrote often is successful for many , depending on the hanlder's and decoy's abilities.

Another way and to add to the list is : if you do not bring t he decoy down to the dog's eye sight level .. then bring the dog's eye level up to the decoy with the dog eyes sight directly even to the bicep area . Use a platform of some sort , a table , a 1.5 foot height deck edge . My personal bias .. just get the dog to bite successfully, precisely how you want , precisely where you want , precisely when you want , at the bicep [ or any other targeted area ] , the very first time !

Again why I add this to Yogi's post is to allow the reader / learner to keep in mind that his/he dog is different . What is best in teaching for one dog is not as good for another dog. Good decoys /helpers work different dogs [ or at least they should ] differently . Every dog , being different , works differently and learns differently. The lack of teachnig the dog as an individual, without giving thought to that dog , adapting to the dog , generally is going through the motions . So you decide if you want a push or a pull dog too ...

by Juno on 26 June 2019 - 12:06

We have tried both techniques suggested by Apple and Yogi with my dog. He targets well when restrained but once sent on a long bite or not restrained he goes high - face, neck, or chest. Maybe he needed more time, but since we are not training for that anymore it does not matter.

by Centurian on 26 June 2019 - 17:06

For Juno , and the others that are in the learning process .

First a side note : what I have encounterted in the dog world .. many experienced people that think they know everything. Try to converse with them and the result is that they get defensive, egotistical , and many times they actually resent the fact that you gave your point of view. Humans are interesting because, they for one reason or another feel the need ' to be right ' . The result , many times the handlers do not speak up , ask questions as to what is going on... Heavens , they should ever question a decoy ...

So for many dogs , and I do not say all dogs , it is very very very important , crucial, how you start the dog off the first time. Prager , to bad we have not heard from Prager . He discussed ' Default ' in teaching a dog and I discused and used the word imprinting. Why ? because many times decoys go through the motions without undestanding the dog . They fail to execute exactly the first time for that Individual dog - without first talking to the dog and hearing what the dog says to them . When I was taught to teach dogs we could not even speak one word , not a sound to the dog. We were tested on our ability to teach a dog Sch w/o ever saying a word. Why , because we had to learn to understand and to listen to the dog. No , not read the dog , that is a superficial colloquial description . And w/o one word spoken in 30 minutes we could teach every single basic obedience exercise , non competition wise, on leash to a dog.

What does this all have to do with Juno and many many other people .. Not teaching accurately the first time , not communicating exactly ton the dog the first time and and thereafter , doing to much to fast before the dog has shown you that he understands what YOU want him to do and then actually does it. Why does the dog go to the Face ? BECAUSE HE CAN - that's why . He once did e.g a chest target , and found that going to the chest or face empowered him greatly , 100% control over the decoy . Now he was off to the races beofe he was taught , conditjoned , and learned that it was in his better interest to bite the upper inner arm . Just like a wolf looking you in the eye, as he looks you in the eye and you take one step back , that wolf knows he has you .. and he will not hesitate to kill you . The wolf in one slight movement becomes empowered , found out where his better interest is and takes advantage of that weakness. So - you think a dog is much different ? Juno , he learned his interst can be attained while he sent away on a long bite , but proximal to you is a different context that is - you and the decoy are powerless . Like a dog heeling on leash , : leash on dog knows he is not in control , take that leash off if you have not taught the dog correctly and he learns your limitations- the dog is empowered and in control - off to the races. BTW -- nad nauseum .. A thousand times if you think only in canine lingo , prey defense this and that instead of thinking actually what is going on in simple language .. you will get into trouble..

Like a child : how many times does it take to lean that a stove burns your hand .. Everyone knows - just once , one time , one experience . Ok -Ok -Ok , we all know : dogs learn through repitition ... But how many times or repititions does learning take ? For some dogs doing some things , Just Once .. That is all it takes.... because they learn and they get defaulted , imprinted , who cares about the terminology [ goodness , everything in the dog world has to have a stupid term , to describe what is going on ] . So many times we cannot talk to decoys because they run the show , they know it all . They are the decoy ..and this is how we do things , we use this method ,this technique .. idiots .... 100 times I wrote if you think that way as a helper/decoy , you are going to cause problems.

When you have a great dog like Juno , the very first time : you have to take evey option away from that dog but one option . And which option is the remaining one ? The one that YOU want [ Unless you want the dog to bite anywhere on the body like I did with some of my dogs for other purposes.] . We also know that dogs do not unlearn behaviors , but it may be possbile to counter-conditon some dogs . Juno if you were going to do sport I would give to you input.. However I know you stopped training for now .

Why I go on about this ? Because and I ask : What is the difference of a recall from 1 foot straight away and a recall 60 feet straight away . The right answer : no difference but the distance , for the recall taught correctly is exactly the same no matter if the distance 1 foot , 60 feet. ...A bite 5 feet away should not be any different than 50 feet away .. if taught correctly** ... Besides I am really upset for Juno ...

by ValK on 26 June 2019 - 19:06

centurian, what a point in imprint the manner of fight in dog, other than earn higher points on sport field?
as you said above - each dog is unique. june stated sport performance out off his goal. his dog seems like smart enough to figure out itself what is his own advantages. it is good. in such case, roles of handler and decoy shouldn't be in discouraging that dog but instead help and steer that dog to advance in learning to take control over opponent.

returning back to original post. i really don't got a point - what handler and helper want to demonstrate with dog in that video.
that dog is strong enough to drag full grown man? sure. but horse and elephant even stronger.
as i said earlier - it seems like nice, athletic build dog but haven't been progressed since "war of tug" puppyhood stage.

what one will achieve through teaching the dog to target particular part of opponent body?
well, only to place bite onto particular part of body, ignoring all else possible variation of fight unfolding.
what result one will have? a kamikaze dog, who will not last for long if would face strong opponent.


by Juno on 26 June 2019 - 20:06

Thanks for your insight Centurian and Valk. I am not too disappointed with the fact we quit sport as my dog and I have a blast together and he does not need to prove anything to me. Only thing we will do is work on home invasion/break in scenarios. That should be useful in the long run but hopefully never needed. Want to make sure I use the right decoy though.
emoryg

by emoryg on 26 June 2019 - 21:06

In my experience, targeting the inside arm is a dangerous place to teach for a dog who may actually need to really bite someone.  This is just as bad as a chest bite.  I do not think it is a good idea to condition a dog to fight at the midline for real life encounters.  This can and does get ugly really quick.   It is never good to see your dog trapped towards the midline while on the bite. 

Remember, when the pushers encounter enough stress, they all become pullers.   Focus should be on conditioning the dog to maintain his status as the aggressor, preferably with teaching him to bite deeper and harder to counter pressure.   If taught correctly, the dog can tolerate extreme levels of pressure.  


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