Bob Fox wants me to breed a dog with SEVERE hip dysplasia - Page 5

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by joanro on 15 December 2018 - 20:12

Jillmissil, the first eight weeks are most crucial when cartilage is changing to bone. Most buyers get them after the developmental damage is done. But injury can happen to ligaments, causing laxity and arthritis....not the same as poorly formed hip socket.

by Prager on 16 December 2018 - 06:12

Anne5928: There is no record with OFA of the sire or dam in this case having X-rays certified. Apparently, he doesn’t believe in HD, or ED anytime it’s negative results. I have proof of the condition/ weight of the dog every time she has had exams with the DVM. Is there a place here I can attach the X-rays?

Prager: yes there is: In the frame where you type click on the blue frame with words "enable aditor" then tape the piscture and then bring cursor into the frame and right-click. Litlle frame will open with word "paste". Open it by clicking on it another frame opens Put your cursor in it and right click. then choose paste. Picture is not in this smal frame then click "OK " ( green frame ) and  picutre is in your post. 

 Choose "submit post". 


by Prager on 16 December 2018 - 07:12

You can not environmentally induce HD in dogs which do not have a genetic predisposition for it. That is sans of injury. To baby dog's environment so the HD is not tripped is actually damaging to overall genetical HD situation in such breeding line>Theoretically: If you want to improve your HD genetics then generate the worst environment for the litter I.E. slippery floors, poor nutrition, running up and down the stars keep the dog full of worms or whatever ( theoretically ) and then select the pup who went through such a horrible environment with the best hips. That is the pup who will have strongest hip genetics. Then do it over and over. And you will have great hips.

 I am posting this only to make the point that HD is genetic but environmentally induced. So if you can not environmentally induce that then means the genetics are favorable to good hips. 

 I think Cornell made a study where the dogs from breeding which was all dysplastic were repeated and dogs were kept in laying or sitting positions in crates None of the pups from the repeated breeding developed HD. Now if you are foolish enough and want to eliminate all environment conducive to HD then keep the dogs in crates sitting or laying down. What will that do to HD genetics? It will be atrocious and if you then let the pups from subsequent generations run and play then you will have mostly if not all dysplastic dogs. 

 Disclaimer for feeble-minded: 

 I am only using this as examples of studies and do not actually expect anyone to do this!!!!


by Hundmutter on 16 December 2018 - 08:12

Any more than we would ever succeed in getting nobody at all to breed from dogs which either have HD, produce HD, or have siblings with HD.

mrdarcy (admin)

by mrdarcy on 16 December 2018 - 10:12

by duke1965 on 16 December 2018 - 11:12

would disagree with that prager, nutrition and injuries are environmetal issues, many times arthroses are result of injury, extreme overweight in pups is environmental, and can go on

by Prager on 16 December 2018 - 17:12

Duke I think you are missing my point. Where did I say that nutrition or injuries are not environmental issues??!!!

by Prager on 16 December 2018 - 17:12

Hundmuter I fully agree. You are actually describing LMX( littermates x rayed) program which I and late Tina Barber( Shiloh Shepherds) have developed. This involves breeding dogs who themselves and at least 90% of their littermates for at least 3 generations back have good hips. IMO that is the only way to lower the genetic incidence of HD. LMX is giving you a window into genetic makeup - genotype of the dogs and their line. To this, we can also add a view of what these dogs themselves produced. If one wants to lower the incidence of HD then LMX must be considered.
The downside of LMX is that there are not adequate numbers of quality dogs which would have good LMX qualifications and we do not breed just hips but we breed whole dog. In any case, I would urge people to look at littermates of the dogs who they want to breed.

by joanro on 16 December 2018 - 17:12

The fact that they have hip joints makes them genetically predisposed to hd. Same as having leg bones makes any animal with legs geneticaly predisposed to having a broken leg....a snake cannot be genetically predisposed to hd nor a broken leg because they DONT HAVE HIPS NOR LEGS!

by Hundmutter on 16 December 2018 - 20:12

Yes Hans; but there will never be a situation where everybody chooses to not take HD risks when breeding, even should such programmes be universally available, cheap !, & recommended by all the Kennel Clubs (they are never gonna make it compulsory).  Because there are too many things breeders (not necessarily inexperienced ones, either) want to replicate in pairings, they are looking among the whole range of traits, from conformation to working ability, for what they want to reproduce. So they would take the HD risk.


Joan was right to ask: "what desirable traits would also be eliminated ?"

That does not make us wrong in the science of it; just it is knowledge which we would hope people take on board, and, as Gustav says, select on genetic probability, as a significant PART of their breeding plans.

HD is too widespread, and too variable in its presenting  severity, IMO, for the simple 'breeding out' objective to function; despite that it has worked to rid other breeds of other conditions (eg eye diseases, blood disorders).

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