Is Electric collar necessary to train precision? - Page 8

Hans,
I see what you are saying and have seen handlers do something along the line you are discussing.  I do not like that approach or that type of correction.  I will offer my opinion on how I view this situation and would love to hear form others as well, perhaps I am wrong and can learn something new here.  I teach my dogs from 7 weeks that "down" is a safe and happy place, every time I approach the dog when it is in a down, praise and affection follow.  If my puppy is loose in the house and laying down I approach and get on the ground and pet the dog with long calm strokes down it's back.  I will praise the dog and often bring a treat.  I may say "down" even though dog is in a down and treat and praise.  I encourage the dog to be happy and relaxed when it sees me approaching.  I do this in the yard as well.  When the dog is told "down" which is different than my use of "platz."  I approach and praise, treat and reward.  The down for my dog is learned early on to be a very happy and safe place and my approach is always enjoyable, welcome and a pleasurable. 

Now, like all of us I have had dogs not come the first time they were called, over the years a dog or two has looked at me and given me the "doggie finger" and gone about it's business.  I do not command the dog to come again, I have  two choices 1) go out and get the dog and if the dog understands the "come" command and is disobedient then I hunt the dog down and bring it to me.  I don't repeat the command I simply go and get the dog (not always so simple) and then my next few training sessions are geared around the recall.  There will be several negative markers employed, such as breathing, body language and a word. I rarely go anywhere that I do not have a means of correction or reward with me or a way to get the dog back to me. 

2) If I could not physically catch the dog, the field was to large or the dog is too fast and I'm to slow then I may tell the dog "down."  Before I do this, I will look at the dog and read it's body language.  If I get the feeling the dog may not recall, I won't call it I will tell it "down" and stay.   I will approach the dog and praise and pet and reward the dog for the down.  If I do call the dog and it ignores me, my voice will change and I will order "down."  I will then go to the dog, bite my tongue find my happy place on the walk over and praise and pet the dog for downing correctly.  I will not correct my dog for one command when it is doing another command properly.  I do not think dogs have the ability to reason that the correction is for not coming when called.  IMO, the dog will be confused that it is being corrected when it was "obeying."  I do not believe the dog will live in the moment of the negative marker or correction until it receives it.  If this was the case the dog wouldn't down.  The dog may down because it is a familiar command or because it senses your aggravation by the yelling, growling and other negative markers, expletives, etc, and downs to be compliant.  This is why I would never correct for the down or while the dog is being obedient.  IMO, you missed the chance to correct for the disobedience of not coming when called and that moment is over.  The time has passed and now you are onto a new behavior, the "down" which the dog did correctly.  I would move on from the missed opportunity to correct and punish the dog for not coming.  I would be better prepared next time and do more proofing. 

Corrections are about timing and being fair and appropriate, if the moment has passed; it has passed.  The negative markers are not "Cialis" that let you continue the moment for hours, it is gone.  I will further add that for those with a strong dog, the dog may object to unfair corrections.  This is a forum of people with a wide level of experience and different dogs, I am not advocating walking up to your dog and correcting or snatching him up from the down he just performed correctly.  Years ago I had a dog that would resist an unfair correction and he was right the few times he protested.






Edit:  I have no first hand experience with Cialis or any of those medications as I fully live in the moment and have good timing.  I am basing that statement on the hundreds of commercials that have interrupted my favorite TV shows and the amount of spam that I get in email junk box.  It was just an example or analogy not based on personal experience.  Some may get the analogy (sorry) some won't (good for you). 
  

Jim I agree with just about everything you say. ANd I do what just about everything you say.  But I do not think that you see my negative down properly. I personally do not chase after the dog and get him. First of all I am 300lb and 60 years old and second I think even Olympian will not be able to catch 3 legged dog if the dog will not let him. Chasing after the dog  may teach the dog that if you are upset with him that best way out  is to run. 
I believe that negative down (deep growling voice down) is different then happy obedience down. Negative down is propositioned (?) by NO and it is not happy Down command of obedience  but negative  NODOWN. I  do use it only in extreme scenarios and only very rarely because the come is imbedded in dog through weeks of formal  training and conditioning and through his life  as I described in my post before and only rarely dog does not come.  Thus there is no danger of dog misunderstanding and having  hurt feelings for getting corrected for down  and since I marked the behavior he knows for 10- 15 seconds while I am getting to him and repeating NO  that  the marker is for not coming. Generally I will use what you are saying and if I miss the moment after I get the dog or better yet after the dog let's me get him I praise  him and we have good reunion. But I use that only if I had no time to mark the not coming improper behavior or if I am not sure that dog understands what I have marked or if I see that the NO was correction enough, which it usually is.
  Also  if you read what I am saying in my  post  is that after I correct him I repeat the exercise of down and come on short distance in a happy somewhat crazy positive  mode in order to communicate to the dog that if he behaves properly no negativity will come at all.  I can actually see in the dogs eyes how happy he is and usually next time comes with no problem again and again. I believe that negative consequence of not coming is important and I believe that if done properly dog knows what is going on. 

Nice one gsd student! Lol. So much testosterone for valentines day, and wasted on an arguement!!!!
I don't do testosterone, I do hormones! And I do obedience without an e collar. Give me a ball anyday!!

I can accept he uses an ecollar if there is some proof of it, but since it seems the ecollar is not illegal in Belgium, I can't see why Mario would lie about it to another Schutzhund enthusiast, especially since he has openly used it with his previous dogs.  Maybe the change in training he referred to is no more electric?


Margaret N-J

 
Why does someone have to be lying? Have you ever played the game of telephone where people line up and pass a whispered message down the line? What starts off as one thing turns into something different by the time it reaches the end of the line.

The proof that he use the e-collar is that he wins.  Most of the people competing at a high level in IPO use an e-collar.  And they do it because it can get them the results they want like no other tool can. To be blunt, I think you are out of your depth in this conversation. You have never trialed a dog at a high level (if at all) and you have never used an e-collar., so what firsthand knowledge are you bringing to the table?

But back to Mario. If you want the truth, you should do what I did and ask him.

Hans,
With out a doubt praise must follw a correction and be at a level significantly higher than the level of the correction.  That I agree with and have no issue with.  That is why i would praise for the obedient down and not correct there.  High praise following a correction is critical and an important step that people often forget, miss or don't understand.  

ChrissieT, 
I agree that GSDstudent's comment regarding Monty Python is a classic.  I love Monty Python.  Of course as stated previously Obedience can be done with out an E collar and although I use an E collar I use a ball on rope a whole lot more.  In fact I use a ball everyday as well as a kong and a tug.  Different toys and rewards for different jobs.  My dogs favorite is a ball on rope.  No wasted Testosterone here.  

Jim,
Excellent description of methods used training the down and the recall, and here is why I say so.
I have had many, many dogs I have rescued (in the hundreds) pass through my house over the past 13 years.
These are the two commands that I absolutely teach these dogs and absolutely impress upon the adopters to continue with proofing, as well as any dog owner when talking about training.
These are the two commands that will save the life of a dog that has gotten loose.
Obviously a reliable recall is necessary to get a dog to come back to you when called, but, it isn't always the solution in every situation.
As an example:
I remember a woman on here commented on a GSD she had happened upon, I think on a California freeway. She and others were chasing the dog trying to catch it, but, couldn't.
At some point she thought to give a "platz" command. The dog went in to a down. She walked across the freeway and put a leash on the dog and then put it in her car. Life saved!

As for competition, I have yet to ever have a dog get up or move during the long down.

I had one dog, a white GSD, that was so relaxed during the long down that while we were practicing this at a club I belonged to years ago he decided to roll over on his back and pretty much take a nap. Not exactly what we were looking for, but, damn funny!

(And Hans, hopefully this will please you. None of this with the down have I ever trained with an e-collar)

--Steve

Hi Christopher

I don't think a comment made to Ulf and told to me is really likely to be like Chinese Whispers and I don't think the fact he wins is proof either way since you only have to watch talented trainers in other fields (Mary Ray for example) to see it is perfectly possible to gain a high level of precision without electric, it seems to be only IPO people who feel the need for it.  If you asked him and he says he uses electric on Hasco, I'll take your word for it, I have no reason to think you are a liar either.

I have never trialled at high level, I am neither talented or dedicated enough for that and what my dogs have achieved has been in spite of me not because of me, I'm lucky to have great dogs to work with.  I have never used electric either, but seen plenty of dogs trained with it and never been impressed enough to think it would work for me, I hate the twitching, vocalising and stressy movements, I am more comfortable with the relaxed style I get with my own dogs and they are still pretty quick and precise.  I have trialled and qualified dogs though and they have done it because they wanted to do the work, not because they were afraid of the consequences of not doing it or had their muscles so repetitively trained they can't help themselves any more.

Out of my depth?  Maybe, but sometimes you can see more looking into the box than looking out of it.


Margaret N-J

I'm still ROFL at the thought that Mario might have taken Ulf for a
'pet person' when they discussed this.

Kaffirdog,
I have never trialled at high level, I am neither talented or dedicated enough for that and what my dogs have achieved has been in spite of me not because of me, I'm lucky to have great dogs to work with.  I have never used electric either, but seen plenty of dogs trained with it and never been impressed enough to think it would work for me, I hate the twitching, vocalising and stressy movements, I am more comfortable with the relaxed style I get with my own dogs and they are still pretty quick and precise.  I have trialled and qualified dogs though and they have done it because they wanted to do the work, not because they were afraid of the consequences of not doing it or had their muscles so repetitively trained they can't help themselves any more.

I'm sorry but I have never seen a dog that was properly trained twitching and with stressy movements.  Vocalizing is a different story, that can be genetic as can the other behaviors you describe as a sign of weak nerves, poor temperament or an extremely soft dog.  I have seen dogs that are afraid of consequences and it shows in the work.  These are dogs IMO that are trained by heavy handed abusive trainers or dogs so soft that they can't handle any pressure at all.  This has nothing to do with an E collar, but the methods utilized by an over bearing, heavy handed trainer that doesn't understand the concept of praise and reward and proper corrections.  What you describe is unfortunate and something that I have seen and more so by handlers that DO NOT use an E collar.  I do not know what the hang up with E collars is, but it seems that you have seen people that are not skilled at working or training dogs and the results you describe are easily achieved by the improper use of a prong collar or choke collar.  You have probably seen dogs well trained with an E collar also but didn't even realize it.  I can assure you that my dog is high in drive, loves working and you will rarely see my dog show any reaction to an E collar correction from me.  You will not see the dog's drive's diminish, you will not see the dog sulk or cower.  Those with a trained eye and really good vision may catch the occasional EAR twitch but that is about it.  
As I mentioned earlier, doing IPO vs only doing obedience is a completely different world of training.  Training in a local obedience trial, while a nice rewarding accomplishment is judged differently than a National or World Championship.  Once you have the experience of obtaining precision in 3 completely different venues as opposed to only obedience you would see things differently.  Once you add in the tracking and bite work you have added exercises that require different control and training styles as well as a different set of rules to the dog.  

An E collar doesn't make a dog afraid of consequences any more than any other correction device, please understand this.  I go to seminars where I see people improperly use all kinds of collars.  Recently, I had to take a handler aside that "slapped" his dog under the chin causing the dog to bite to bite his tongue and bleed  a fair amount.  I see handlers that get frustrated and shake their dogs by the scruff of the neck or crank on their correction collars.  IMO, hitting a dog is inappropriate and hands are only used for praising and petting never slapping, hitting or striking.  Hard leash corrections combined with frustration or anger from the handler is also incorrect and these things cause the behaviors that you see, not the proper use of an E collar or any other training device.  Regularly I train with dogs put in to situations that you will not see or ever be involved in with your obedience training.  Dogs placed high in drive and in aggressive states that require control and a focused dog, abusive training of any type will have dangerous consequences.  Strong inappropriate corrections will cause the handler to be bitten or some one else that shouldn't.  Since you have never done bite work or dealt with a a dog in an elevated state of excitement or aggression you will not understand the differences in the dogs.  Some handlers very effectively use an E collar while some use choke collars (which I do not like) or prong collars.  Regardless, of the method of control the results must be the same.  A clear headed, high drive, focused dog that is confident and understands the task.  A dog that enjoys working and is not fearful or concerned of corrections from it's handler.  When you get your dog pushed further into higher levels of drives and want to be able to control the dog with finesse while off lead you may see the advantages of an E collar.  I will say for simple obedience, no it is not necessary especially for medium drive dogs.  When pushing a dog further and expecting more, yes an E collar can be an excellent tool for a fair, smart, skilled handler who understands the principle of praise and reward and the need and proper use of compulsion and reward.  Every dog needs to be corrected at some point in training, just be fair and clear to the dog with what ever means of correction that you use.  

The people that feel the way that you do will never be convinced by posts on a forum.   Please go to some seminars and see some really great trainers work and see how they achieve the results they do.  Keep in mind top trainers will never share all of their secrets or techniques, there are some things that are closely guarded "secrets."   If I was approached by a person who asked how I trained my dog and they expressed that E collars were abusive I'd probably not go into too much detail about my training and walk away as well.  I would immediately realize that a conversation regarding training would be futile.  Unfortunately, some handlers do look for "short cuts" and some do abuse dogs in training or just as pets.  Some of this has led to the stigma attached to the use of various training devices.  I have tried as others have to describe the proper use of a tool that can give great results when used properly.  It doesn't appear that I am very effective, so I will stop.  

I need to go and find that Monty Python clip......
Ahhhh, found it!!!!!   I feel so much better now.

Margaret..

NO dog that has been properly trained on an E collar suffers from involuntary muscle twitches or spasms. The vocalization you see some times is from very high drive dogs who are overloaded and want to express that drive faster then the handler wants to allow.
If you own and try to train a dog that does not genetically have the proper drives for the work, you are engaging in animal abuse, ALL dogs that work or compete at the high levels you see are there because they have the right drives and want to perform.
Finally, here is something that maybe others are afraid to say out loud or admit, but, ALL dogs work because of concequences, both negative and positive and ALL training works because its based on this principal. There are rewards for doing and corrections for not doing, simple really. Then again, we humans work and behave as we do based on this very same principal as well...