Geocentrism and - Page 5

Okay, one more time!  In what way do you mean  believe?

I rest my case.  

Decide what is your definition and call me in the morning. Waste of breath, as it is. 

travels yr not playing the game right, you gotta give yr definition first so it can be twisted.

VK4 wrote: as there is for yhwh......none, at least outside of yr mind.

 

Here we go again lol, your delusions gets the best of you; you know the fact that we have universe tells us that we need a creator, because you see the universe has a beginning and therefore requires a cause? The energy in the universe has the beginning therefore requires a cause; people say well fine, God made the universe but then who made God? But you see I said this many times before VK4, God is eternal, God does not have a beginning therefore doesn’t require a cause that may be little hard to grasp for you VK4, but there is nothing irrational about eternal being. There is something irrational about something popping into existence from nothing because that violates causality.

 

“Before the mountains were brought forth, or ever you formed the earth and the world, even from everlasting to everlasting, you are God” Psalm 90:2

 

Hear me out VK4, you know famous evolutionist once asking? Where did the Big Bang come from? And he said simply you know if somebody ever ask you where mass-energy came from? Just ask them where God came from. And I think he really said something much more meaningful than he thought, something had to be eternal either mass-energy is eternal or God is eternal, well scientists though us a lot about mass-energy; one of the things is - it wears out, mass-energy eternal doesn’t make any sense at all, God is eternal does make sense, as we read in that first chapter of Hebrews, the heavens, the whole universe is growing old and wearing out like a garment to be cast off – but thou O Lord endureth forever.

 

The Bible explains there is one God who is the creator and source of all life and energy, the forces of nature – energized and guided by his hand.

 

Listen VK4, one of the things in creation that I think really exhibits God’s power is? The power released in Stars! The sun it releases more energy in one second than a billion majors city’s on the earth if there were billion - produce in a year - and that’s just released in one second, you can imagine that! But of course there are stars that are even more powerful than a sun and just imagine all that power and all of those stars, billions of stars in our own galaxy, billions of stars in other galaxies and yet the Bible describes the creation of all that energy, all of that power with an single phrase – he made the stars also.

 

What is estimated that are well over one hundred billion stars in our galaxy, the Milky Way galaxy, it estimated that there are over hundred billion galaxies in the universe, the Bible tells us heavens are higher than the earth so God’s ways above our ways and his thoughts above our thoughts, chew on that for little bit VK4, think about how big the universe is compare to the earth which is a head of the pin like comparison.

 

God has made the universe so vast, all men can do is just marveled at this universe, the vastness of it and I say God you are so great and I think what David said, when I consider your heavens, the work of your fingers; the moon, stars that you have made what is Man - that thou mindful of him or the son of man that you should visit him.

 

I talked about this before VK4 in other thread; today the most astronomers acknowledge that the universe appears to be expanding this also agrees with the Bible which says Isaiah 40:22: God stretches out the heavens like a curtain. Well, that is written in a poetic way so we have to be careful and yet there at least ten other places in the Bible where talks about this stretching out the heavens and that something that was only discovered in the twenty century and scientist found indeed all the galaxies appear moving away from each other as of entire universe is being alone behold stretched down, expanding just like the Bible says and that’s obviously NOT something that people could have observed in ancient times, that something that had to been revealed to them from above.

 

Truly, “The heavens declare the glory of God.” Psalms 19:1

 

You see VK4, there had to be someone - NOT something because things wear out, remember in other thread we spoke about “second law of thermodynamics”, it had to be someone without beginning or end! Who had the power and the knowledge, the wisdom, the incredible infinite intelligence to put all this together from the atom, organization atom to cosmos and so forth…When we look at the many examples of God’s power, it should invoke a sense of reverence and ah in our hearts; the Bible tells us the fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom, the fear of the Lord is to hate evil, fear of the Lord leads to life, therefore the proper response to God’s authority is to worship him and seek his mercy and forgiveness for our sins.

 

And to summarize: The Prophet Jeremiah 32:14 declare: “Ah, Lord God! Behold, you have made the heavens and the earth by your great power and outstretched arm. There is nothing too hard for you.” Surely creation reveals God’s omnipotent. And my conclusion having patience with your delusions VK4: there are many examples in creation of things that demonstrates the Biblical God, I said this few times before - one would be in our very DNA, our DNA has information in it, and there is a whole field of scientific study called information science which studies how information originates, how it transmits and so on…And one of the laws of information science says that information never originates by itself in matter, never spontaneously that comes about. Anytime we trace the copy of information back to its source, it always comes back to a mind and since we have creative information in DNA that tells me DNA comes from intelligence, it’s NOT something could possibly come about through millions of years of mutations and natural selection, it just won’t work. And if you can’t see fingerprint of God that he left in his creation then you are truly blinded. Thank you for reading. Shtal.

Shtal - in your particular explanation, everything in the universe is said to be "contingent", therefore logically calling for a non-contingent entity to satisfy causality - a "necessary being".

Yes

http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/forum.read?mnr=783493-understanding    "causality" My first post in the link I provided!

Understanding "cause and effect" in scientific terms!

 your delusions gets the best of you;

your delusion is believing in a fairy tale as if it was fact.

 

you know the fact that we have universe tells us that we need a creator,

no it doesn't - you have assumed that without proof, so yr first line of argument is unproven assumption so whatever follows is not fact, but lets play.

 

because you see the universe has a beginning and therefore requires a cause?

 

the cause might have been the collapse of a previous universe? more solid reasoning for that assumption than yours

 

The energy in the universe has the beginning therefore requires a cause;

the energy is the cause makes more sense, you need to do some serious science to find out.

people say well fine, God made the universe but then who made God?

 

precislely

 

But you see I said this many times before VK4, God is eternal,

proof??? you can not demonstrate god exists so how can you give god properties such as eternal?...you have no basis other than you wish it to be so.

 

God does not have a beginning

proof, how do you know this? it is an assumption you want to be true.

 

therefore doesn’t require a cause

 

first you have to demonstrate god exists with somthing other than faith before you can make any truth claims, you haven't.

 

that may be little hard to grasp for you VK4,

 

it is not hard to grasp that you want god to be true so you make up things you can't prove

 

but there is nothing irrational about eternal being.

 

first you need to demonstrate such a being exists or it is just a hope

 

There is something irrational about something popping into existence from nothing because that violates causality.

 

how so, causality is violated all the time in physics, physics requires it, quantum mechanics requires it, experiments observe it

 

“Before the mountains were brought forth, or ever you formed the earth and the world, even from everlasting to everlasting, you are God” Psalm 90:2

 

that is not proof, it is scripture, demonstrate that evry one of the thousands of other religions are all wrong and your religion is right first.

 

Hear me out VK4, you know famous evolutionist once asking? Where did the Big Bang come from?

an evolutionists is free to and can ask whatever he/she wants, they are not trained in cosmology, physics and physical mathematics, they are biologists that have made the best explanation for the diversity of living things that has withstood evry challenege for over 150 years and has mountains of evidence so yr apeal to authority of a biologist means nothing outside the field of biology, and do you have a reference for this "famous evolutionist"

 

And he said simply you know if somebody ever ask you where mass-energy came from? Just ask them where God came from.

reference please

 

And I think he really said something much more meaningful than he thought, something had to be eternal either mass-energy is eternal or God is eternal,

argument from ignorance - "something had to be...", in a strawman fallicy and false dichotomy either x is true OR ...one does not follow from the other.

 

well scientists though us a lot about mass-energy; one of the things is - it wears out,

 

how exactly does mass-energy "wear out", that is not a fallcay it is a nonsense

 

mass-energy eternal doesn’t make any sense at all,

nature does not have to make sense to you personally, nature is, it's not what YOU want it to be to fit yr fairy tale.

God is eternal does make sense,

to who, you? makes no sense to me, i don't beleive god exists at all, can you prove otherwise?

as we read in that first chapter of Hebrews,

thats scientific

the heavens, the whole universe is growing old and wearing out like a garment to be cast off

 "the whole universe is growing old" - well DUH, it should grow younger in time?????

 

– but thou O Lord endureth forever.

proof that he endureth at all please

 

The Bible explains there is one God who is the creator and source of all life and energy, the forces of nature – energized and guided by his hand.

 

reference to that scripture/s, the bible explains nothing we observe in nature, the bible says the earth is flat and that you can build a tower out of clay bricks and reach heaven, it is full of contradictions and facts we know are just wrong, i can list them if you want, it will take a lot of pages. how does his hand interact with the universe, you seen it? how do you know there is one god, none or many?? the bible only describes nature from a primitive bronze age level of knowledge for a few miles around palestine.

 

Listen VK4, one of the things in creation that I think really exhibits God’s power is? The power released in Stars!

 

no science says precisely a lot about the power released in starts through fusion reactions and how matter formed after the big bang, the bible says stars a little pin pricks in the firnament above a flat earth a few miles above the earth, science says what stars are made of, how they are made and their distances from earth, their life cycle and their distribution, the bible says nothing about that.

 

The sun it releases more energy in one second than a billion majors city’s on the earth if there were billion - produce in a year - and that’s just released in one second, you can imagine that!

a calculation would be good, can you do maths, show me a single calculation

 

But of course there are stars that are even more powerful than a sun and just imagine all that power and all of those stars, billions of stars in our own galaxy, billions of stars in other galaxies and yet the Bible describes the creation of all that energy, all of that power with an single phrase – he made the stars also.

show me the maths, bible describes nothing about the enrgy in stars, it said god spoke them into existence and created light before he created stars - just gibberish really

 

What is estimated that are well over one hundred billion stars in our galaxy,

you did not get that from the bible, lol

 ... the Bible tells us heavens are higher than the earth

pure genius, and god was scared bronze age sheep herders could build a tower to reach it with clay bricks..LMAO

 

so God’s ways above our ways and his thoughts above our thoughts,

an insect has deeper thoughts than you and the average creationist

 

chew on that for little bit VK4, think about how big the universe is compare to the earth which is a head of the pin like comparison.

 

chewed on it, and can't find anything in the bible that says it, see previous comments

 

God has made the universe so vast,

demonstrate god has made it and that he exists without quoting the bible, any evidence will do.

all men can do is just marveled at this universe,

not true we can use our brains and understand it 

the vastness of it and I say God you are so great

sounds like a line from monty python, shatl you are cowardly snivelling sychpohant

and I think what David said, when I consider your heavens, the work of your fingers; the moon, stars that you have made what is Man - that thou mindful of him or the son of man that you should visit him.

 

 tell me when his next visit is and i will friend him on face book

 

I talked about this before VK4 in other thread; today the most astronomers acknowledge that the universe appears to be expanding this also agrees with the Bible which says Isaiah 40:22: God stretches out the heavens like a curtain.

clutching at straws with that one, also says the earth is flat and the heavens are a dome over it

Well, that is written in a poetic way so we have to be careful and yet there at least ten other places in the Bible where talks about this stretching out the heavens and that something that was only discovered in the twenty century and scientist found indeed all the galaxies appear moving away from each other as of entire universe is being alone behold stretched down, expanding just like the Bible says and that’s obviously NOT something that people could have observed in ancient times, that something that had to been revealed to them from above.

 

lets look at those scriptures in detail shall we, please post them.

 

Truly, “The heavens declare the glory of God.” Psalms 19:1

 

i have not seen that in the heavens

 

You see VK4, there had to be someone - NOT something because things wear out, remember in other thread we spoke about “second law of thermodynamics”,

yes and you talked a whole bunch of crap that you could not prove and ignored any mathematical analysis and actual evidence to back up yr claim

it had to be someone without beginning or end!

your projection of god, not a fact

Who had the power and the knowledge, the wisdom, the incredible infinite intelligence to put all this together from the atom, organization atom to cosmos and so forth…When we look at the many examples of God’s power,

not a single example of gods power, just your ignornace of how things work

it should invoke a sense of reverence and ah in our hearts;

no just dissapointment that you beleive ancient myths and can't do the science

the Bible tells us the fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom, the fear of the Lord is to hate evil, fear of the Lord leads to life, therefore the proper response to God’s authority is to worship him and seek his mercy and forgiveness for our sins.

assuming god exists, not sure about you but i don't go around sinning like most xtians do so what is there to forgive?

And to summarize: The Prophet Jeremiah 32:14 declare: “Ah, Lord God! Behold, you have made the heavens and the earth by your great power and outstretched arm. There is nothing too hard for you.” Surely creation reveals God’s omnipotent.

no you need to prove he exists, the fact there is a universe is not proof of god.

And my conclusion having patience with your delusions VK4: there are many examples in creation of things that demonstrates the Biblical God,

still waiting for just one

 "... it’s NOT something could possibly come about through millions of years of mutations and natural selection, it just won’t work.

well heres the good news, it can and it has, look around you, and no mention of god anywhere

 

And if you can’t see fingerprint of God that he left in his creation then you are truly blinded.

and if you can see god's fingerprint anywgere at all then you have one helluva good imagination

 

VK4 Wrote: the cause might have been the collapse of a previous universe? more solid reasoning for that assumption than yours

The rest of the crap you wrote NOT worth my time...

Carlin wrote: Shtal - in your particular explanation, everything in the universe is said to be "contingent", therefore logically calling for a non-contingent entity to satisfy causality - a "necessary being".

 

I decided to extrapolate my point a little bit further Carlin than simply giving you a simple answer YES.

Remember Carlin, the primacies everything that begins to exists has a cause, something cannot come in to being “out of nothing” but if something is eternal and timeless then it doesn’t fall into that first premise, it doesn’t need a cause and the concept of God is the concept of eternal self-existent necessary being and therefore the answer is simply the God is uncaused, he is self-existent. The first law of thermodynamics the rule that matter and energy can ONLY be rearrange or in other words matter neither being created nor destroyed. This is NOT an objection to existence of God; this would be an objection to the Big Bang theory of the origin of the Universe, it would show that the Big Bang theory – the origin of Universe is false because according to that theory, all matter and energy, even space and time themselves came into being at the moment of the Big Bang and therefore NOT eternal, they haven’t always been in the past. So if athiests were right? All the contemporarily cosmologies to believed in the Big Bang theory the origin of the universe would be contradicting the laws of thermodynamics, that’s hardly the case – why? Well because the laws of thermodynamics in particular the laws of conservational matter and energy ONLY applies once the universe comes into being, it applies every moment, every time and every point in the universe but it doesn’t apply to the origin of the universe itself and that’s why cosmologies don’t consider the law conservation energy and matter is violated by the Big Bang theory of origin the universe. And there is second law of thermodynamics which says that in the close system things tend towarding increasing disorder; now the universe on atheistic view is just a gigantic close system because it is everything there is and there is nothing outside it and what that implies is giving sufficient time, everything in the universe would grind down to a state of maximum disorder, so if the universe is existed for infinite time from eternity past, why is it we don’t find ourselves in sort of thermodynamics disorder state. I think the best answer that is, the universe has NOT existed forever, it begun finite time ago in a low entropy condition and thermodynamic clock is been running ever since then. So the evidence of thermodynamics itself suggests that the universe and matter and energy NOT infinite eternal in the past but had absolute beginning.

Just to summarize Carlin, we have premised one! Whatever begins to exist has a cause! Premised two! The universe began to exist and from that we draw the conclusion that the universe has a cause.