David Wilkerson vs Joel Osteen - Page 21

Shtal.. Who is this Kerrigan Skelly??..What qualifies him to teach?.

And I beg your pardon, but it would hurt to watch this video,,It is very difficult for me personally to listen to the ramblings of a self proclaimed teacher of the Word..
 

Ruger1,

May I ask you honestly without giving you hard-time, how about this preacher.
 

I know I have pasted many video clips in the past, but this video will help all christians to see the truth and the truth will set you free!

< YAWN >   Can't stand public speakers who keep
repeating everything they say ... my hope of under-
standing just gets buried in the mire they create.

Bit like ppl constantly cutting & pasting the same
great chunks of the bible etc.

Maybe the 'battering down' intentions are the same ?

Shtal,,
In spite of your unwillingness to provide me with a simple request of information I watched about 10 minutes of the video above. It only took me that long to understand why this speaker and you have such a problem with Bible interpretation..Here is the first and most important problem, you are under the impression that God has to act in a way that seems "right" to you ..You mistakenly believe that an infinite God is under an obligation to make sense to your finite mind..

I heard this speaker say at least 3 or 4 times in the time I was listening that, quote, "this doesn't make sense to me" or, " this is not rational"...lol,,Is that what you and your type are seeking? sense and rationale??.lol...If so, you will be sorely disappointed with scripture,,.You seek for God to be rational and to make sense ?...That is laughable.

If you want rational and sense you are on the wrong thread,,Science is rational; Science makes sense humanly speaking,,Biblical truth is based on a infinite Gods nature and and the faith He provides His people ,,,,.lol,,a far cry from rational and sense,,lol,,

I have said this before and I will say it again..The number one error you and speakers like this one make is they DO NOT understand God's character or nature. without a clear and biblical understanding of who God is and His nature you CAN NOT hope to understand ANYTHING taught in the scripture...All of scripture is a reflection of His nature and character. It is not Gods obligation to meet your criteria of what is logical.. It is however mans obligation to accept what scripture teaches us about God...

The second error is your ignorance of mans spiritual condition. You do not like what scripture teachers because you find what you consider to be an injustice..You do not like to be told that you are 100% at the mercy of a Holy and Just God. Regardless of how irrational you feel God is in His requirement of man it does not change the facts..You under estimate God and you over estimate man.. 

Have you ever really listened to a biblical teaching of Gods character and nature??,,When your foundation is bad it makes all that you build on it weak..You are ignorant of the most fundamental truth in all of scripture,,God....

I do pray that God will open your eyes ..I believe that you seek truth, but have been lead astray by the ignorant ...

Deanna,,:)

hey! down there who disliked my post again!!,,lol,,...lol...
 

GSDguy,,Let us get one thing straight, I did not just simply state you were wrong ,I am familiar with the background of the Psalm and have come to my conclusion based on the context of the chapter and the rest of scripture..,lol,,stop playing games huh,,The verse is NOT teaching he was born because of sin, The scripture is clearly teaching he was born in sin..We will have to agree to disagree...

As far as the Ezekiel passages the scripture is simply teaching that each person is accountable to their own sin,,That does not in anyway nullify the clear teaching of original sin..It only builds on the idea that every human has a personal responsibility toward God for their actions not based on the actions of their natural parents or anyone else for that matter..That is why we will all give an account to God individually .

You did not answer my question about knowing any one who is sinless?..Since you believe that we are born sinless do you know of anyone who has attained this sinles**s status indefinitely??..

Also, It is of no consequence whether scripture makes sense to you or not,,Scripture does not need to meet your standard of rationale..As a matter of fact, lol, scripture rarely makes sense intellectually speaking..The fact remains, Christ was without sin and was incapable of sinning based on His nature ..Christ is God,,You need to build your theology on the basic principles of Bible doctrine..

As far as your comment about many Calvinists holding to the view that Christ was sinless due to Mary herself being conceived in a miraculous way, ..Please provide me with the names of these teachers ..I have never personally met or heard of a traditional Calvinist who did...

Maybe you could get together with Gouda and you could work on providing these names
together,,:)

First things first, what does it matter "who this teacher is"? You seem to only give one credibility if they are a well known teacher, or as others do....If they have gone to some "school of divinity" or "theology".  I don't care what others consider "credible" to be a teacher, preacher, etc as far as those things go,  so long as they are teaching the truth. 

Your explanation of the Ezekiel passage doesn't really disprove anything.  But at the same time it partially proves exactly what I've said before, and what I hold to be true, according to the Scriptures.....That we are only held accountable for what we do, and not what others do.  But if....as you claim....that children inherit sin; Would a child born, "inheriting sin", who dies as a baby......be lost?

And yes, I believe we are born sinless, I've yet to see any of the passages you've quoted that prove otherwise.  As for your question though, you know the answer to that.  Now if you want to pervert and twist Romans 3:23 to justify your belief, then think about this.  It says "all have sinned".  That is completely different than saying "someone was born inheriting sin".  Can a baby sin? Does a baby know right from wrong? If one wants to twist Romans 3:23 to say a baby can sin,  after all, it does say "all"....Jesus came in the flesh, so........  Neither Christ, nor a little baby sins.

I've been thinking about things, and relooking at other passages that were mentioned before.  Just as other preachers I've talked to, held to the thoughts about Matthew 18:3 as not just dealing with humility. Sure it mentions that within verse 4, but noticed "are converted" in verse 3. "Are converted" is defined as an active and voluntary turning from sin".   Something else, even in 1 Corinthians 14:20 why does it state "Brethren, do not be children in your thinking; yet in evil be infants, but in your thinking be mature."

Your thoughts on inheriting sin remind me of John 9. God does not demand of us or hold us accountable for what we cannot help. Jesus, for example, said, "If you were blind, you would have no sin" (John 9:41). Jesus is talking about being unable to comprehend right and wrong. Infants have no sin because we know they can't comprehend right and wrong. God does not hold them accountable.​

And dealing with the Psalm passage again.  I talked to another preacher, one who has been preaching a lot longer than I have.  This is what he had said.  "Understanding what David really means in his phrase can open up a valuable lesson for us. While the wording seems to suggest that he was born in iniquity, and that he was born depraved and sinful, in context with the rest of the Bible, the doctrine seems impossible. We know from Matthew 18:3 that Christ wants us to strive to be like children in our clean consciences. We also know from Ezekiel 18 that children do not inherit the sins of their parents, under any circumstances. Naturally, then, we can assume that children are not born depraved in soul. There are many commentators and preachers who argue that what David is saying is this, “Behold, I was brought forth into a world of iniquity and depravity, and a sinful mother conceived me.” What he means is that the world is full of sin, and even his own mother was sinful. Even Mary, the mother of Jesus was sinful! Every man or woman who ever lived has committed sin, according to Romans 5:12, but that does not mean a baby is born in sin. If babies are sinful, then why would Christ command us to be like them? There is also the idea that David is using hyperbole to give the reader a sense of how sinful he perceives himself to be. He is exaggerating in order to prove his point that he is a sinner who does not deserve to be forgiven. I find it interesting that folks will try to draw literal conclusions and build doctrines on extravagant language in a poem!​"

And even more to your idea that Jesus wasn't capable of sinning "because He is God" as you stated.  ​Temptation without the possibility of acting on it is not temptation at all. There's an old story about a pig who walked past the candy store every day. He bought candy every single time, until one day he realized he needed to lose weight. Well, he only managed to go two days on his diet before he couldn't help himself anymore. He hurriedly ran down the street to the candy store, only to discover that it was closed for remodeling. He congratulated himself, saying, "I've done a good job today! I did not eat a single piece of candy!" The moral of the story is that it is very easy to claim you are not tempted by something when you lack the ability to act upon temptation. In Hebrews 2:17 it says Jesus had to become like his brethren in all things, and Hebrews 4:15 clearly says he was tempted in all things. It doesn't just say He understands temptation, but that He was tempted. 

GSDguy..

Well there you have it,,You, as well as Shtal and Gouda like to take instruction from those unlearned in Biblical Theology. I could get my uncle so and so to make a YouTube video and claim to be a teacher of Bible truths too for all that matters..

Wonder if you feel the same about those who perform surgery on your family..Do you care about their academic
accomplishments??,,Or do you hold to the same idea that as long as "they believe" they are practicing according to what "they " think is medical truth it makes it ok..

I understand that academic accomplishments only go so far,,lol,,as some of the most accomplishes intellectuals are ignorant.., but godliness along with the biblical mandate to, "study to show thyself approved" and our call to "handle the Word of God properly " is still best practice where Biblical Theology is concerned..


I answered your question at least once already regarding sin and Christ and sin and babies.You don't agree with my interpretation and I don't agree with yours..We will have to agree to disagree..

My only goal is to provide those reading these threads who are interested in a biblical understanding of scripture something to grow on..,Something different then the faulty doctrine preached by Shtal, and Gouda ( and you ) ...





 

So saith Deana.

   gouda

The purpose of having a degree in any subject matter is to give credibility to one's occupation.  The same is true for those in the ministry.  Seminary schools have classes in the Hebrew and Greek languages which helps ministers interpret scripture.  
 

"Some people learn to play the piano beautifully without ever earning a college music degree or going to a conservatory. Some people become brilliant business persons even though they don't have an MBA. However, most excellent musicians have gone to schools of music, and most successful executives have engaged in some form of advanced education.

Schools are an effective way to convey overall knowledge, perceptions, and skills to a large group of people. Some individuals will be able to get the same knowledge and ability without a school to help them. However, most people, including pastors, will benefit by going to a school. They will acquire the knowledge more systematically and at an earlier time in their ministry."

Source:  http://seminarygradschool.com/article/Why-We-Need-Seminary


Gsdguy:  you never answered my question---did you attend seminary school?   BTW, Calvanism absolutely does NOT teach that Mary, the mother of Jesus, was holy or born miraculously.  Where in the world did you get that false information?