by ValK on 07 August 2019 - 20:08
Are there any videos or books about training and building self control, especially for dogs that are very vocal? I remember a few years ago seeing something recommended but I cannot seem to find anything now.
12 December 2013
very good and in light of present trend in breeding, actual question, asked 6 years ago and never been answered.
no, you can't train dog selfcontrol. it must be in dog, embedded through genetic.
by Centurian on 07 August 2019 - 21:08
Are you presenting a question that was asked by someone ? And are you saying that 6 years ago that was question was answered but not satifactorily answered ? But you go on to say :
"no, you can't train dog selfcontrol. it must be in dog, embedded through genetic. "
If so you are not entirely correct. For the record I threw all my dog training books away 30 years ago .. for the simple reason that not everything written in the books is true or entirely true.
A dog that cannot control itself : dogs have the ability to have impulse control and or can be aided through teaching to control their impulses. This is as much learning as it is genetics. I say that becuase in about everything , every behavior , there is a genetic component as well as a learned /environmental component . Having said that there are dogs , that if they have 'Abnormal Genetics" , or , another way of stating that , if the dog is not squared away in the head sort to speak , they may not have the ability to control themselves [ they are simply not a normal Animal ] .
How can I liken this : People have the ability to control themselves . Some people need to be taught or it has to be learned by them . But nnemral people can control themselves. maybe ghey need skills , such as coping skills to be learned , but they have the capacity to learn them . People that are Abnormal Psychologically , meaning based on their genetic make up and their neurological basis , they may not be able to control themselves.
For example , one of the aspects of Temperament , which is a topic we so often talk about in GSs , is the feature we call ' Hyperactivity ' . That is different than a GS having a lot of Motivation that translates behaviorally into energy. Motivation and High Energy , they are two entirely different traits / aspects/ features altogether . Some people in life , are they not chartacterized as ADD or Hyperactive. These are abnormal psychological states that are based on the neurological / genetic make up of a person . So dogs : they can be normal or abnormal in these same respects also .
A person that cannot control itself , especially if they lack empathy for another animal or person , is a very very dangerous person. So it is with a dog that cannot control itself just like a person that cannot contro itself , in certain manners . For canines ' Aggression' is but one instance among others .
I teach a dog is two aspects [ a puppy or adult ] : To attend to me and always to look to take my cues / lead . The second aspect : to control itself. My reasoning is that if the dog does not have in it's mind and heart to look towards me mentally andto look to take my cues then I am going to have to ' make it ' in a kind manner , to do what I need it to do . If the dog does not control itself then I am going to always always always have to be in a position whereby I have to continually assert myself and control that dog myself - most often that will be physical , especially if the dog has tuned me out mentally .
by ValK on 08 August 2019 - 01:08
i should have provided a link to original.
and again sorry centurian, what you teach the dog, cannot be called dog's selfcontrol. dog only learn to submit to your control over dog's true will to behave differently.
by Centurian on 08 August 2019 - 11:08
Sometimes there is a very thin line that seperates one thing from another thing , and many times we talk about something but have a different way of expressing that something .
My first comment , dogs do THINK and they can LEARN with or without us. Having said that - most often when I want the dog to learn to control itself , I purposely say or do nothing ! What I do instead is get into the dog's head such that [ and here is where i might agree with you to a point ] I allow the dog to think and do , what I want it to do or ' do not want it to do '. For example , I do not want my dogs to jump out of my truck . I never ever ever say a word or do a thing ..... I stress that again , I never say or do anything . Yet the dog figures out quite fast what it has to do in order to get out of that truck . Some dogs may go through a whole repitoire of offered behaviors in order to get out of that truck . The key : is that when I see that dog control itself , maybe to lie in front of the door , or to be still , then they find that door opens to them . So , where I agree with you is that is what I want , I might say my will , in a sense , but then again the dog chooses for himself. BUT it was the dog's own free will , it's own decision , it's own action or inaction that got that door opened. I never orderd that dog to be still . It decided on it's own accord to be still , to control itself.
Bite work ..... IMOP , I transfer this concept to Bitework . The dog figures out what brings him a bite. For example , if he act like an idiot out of control knuckle head , then nothing happens . When I see that the dog himself controls himself , that is to say to be intent , calm , cool , collected in mind and body , then the decoy / helper allows him to bite . Again , I do nothing but stand still , I do nothing and I say nothing - I do not even acknowledge the dog ! Atention for bad behavior is better than no attention at all , yes ? This slef control instilled woithin the dog , has is nothing to do about me , but more so what the dog chooses to do or not do . The dog figures out , how he can get a bite. I do not figure this out for him . The out : I never ever ever put a dog onto a helper with the ' intention of** ' outing that dog , if I know that he will not decide to control himself and that he will not decide to out beforehand. Why , because we are to work together . Why do dogs do thing ... simply becuase they think or they ecide that they can - that simple [ with the exception of innate autonomc , reflex resposes that is ].
This is not about asserting my will or him to make him out. He 'outs' because he decides to and he realizes that when he hears this cue ' to out ' , that the cue is in OUR better interest. That is to say : I am giving him permission and allowing the dog to out rather than asserting my will over the dog. So when the dog is on the bite , I want my dog to be in control of himself and the helper/decoy , and when he hears the 'out' , to realize that he still is in control , in a manner of speaking - in control of himself , in control of the situation , and in control of the the decoy/helper . Being in control aids the dogs feeling of being secure and safe in the context and situation as he awaits and is ready to move on to his next goal . IMOp , there gives a dog much power psychologically and in attitude , when dog that expresses his self control . Self control is linked IMOP with a dog that has self confidence and assueance self . It is easier to have control over a situation when you have confidence , expressed through the control that you have over yourself ...
So .. do I expect anyone to think and to do the same as I do - No I don't . But if ever one sees a dog that works like this .. then just that is all I can say . Goodness , pups at 10 weeks old , I teach how to control themselves without ever saying or doing a thing on my part and BTW that teaching , is always off collar/ leash ! . Don't get me wrong .. When I started out 30 + years ago teaching and training dogs , I first learned how to assert my will over the dog and make the dog do something that I wanted . I found it is much much much easier for me and much better for me, that the dog simply learns what I want it to learn and that the dogs simply does what I want it to do by his own will . Just saying .. BTW , those behaviors for me are more reliable and predictable , dependable , when the dog decides to do them and controls itself in doing so ... If the dog thinks of something that it wants to do [ reallythat being what I want it to do ] , then the dog will surely do it , that is a fact ...
by ValK on 12 August 2019 - 01:08
it's not about learning with or without our intervention. it's not about bite or any extreme situation for that matter.
selfcontrol is about how dog reacting to events. and that reaction foremost based on level of dog's innate intelligence vs. dog's instinct, which mainly are impulsive action.
perhaps most known example could be the dog, who punish an adult for inflicted pain but at same time can be patient to a baby, who does hurt that dog. thus dog are in control of own instinctive impulses.
of course self control not limited only to example above.
the situations and events can vary and in every each one case the dog can respond either by instinctive action or
do assessment and respond, based on own assessment.
by Baerenfangs Erbe on 12 August 2019 - 02:08
by duke1965 on 12 August 2019 - 09:08
wouldnot call that self control, dog will understand which actions(or lack thereof) will get him what he wants, understanding that by being obedient to handler/trainer, to begin with
by Centurian on 12 August 2019 - 12:08
So .... What difference does it make how a dog learns to control itself , whether that be from internal forces i.e it's own THOUGHTS or instincts / genetics [ by the way every , that is to say , EVERY behavior has a learned /environmental a component , unlesss it is an autonomic reflex like blinking of an eye ] or external forces .
Self contol is self control . Impulse control is impulse control . Nevertheless the dog canand does learn to control himslef. THAT is what is most paramount/ important. Does not the dog have to be in control of himself for such behaviors as : outing from a bite as opposed to being choked off a bite ? From not biting someone when it is " turned off " when that person threatens you ? When you send a dog to bite a person and then " call off " the dog .
In order for a dog to do what you ask , immediately when you ask while it is completely away from you off leash ... that requires a dog to have impulse / self control . You people think that 100 % of the time a dog does something...... " just because YOU say so" ?... as if the dog does not think , feel , have motivations of it's own , . Do you think a dog is simply an automated piece of programmed robotic machinery . A dog can learn to control itself , to control it's impulses , either from internal forces or external forces on it's own accord
Obedience , which is different than a dog COMPLYING - Obedience by defintion is : when a dog hears your cue/ command , that dog Immediately , Willingly [ implying it chooses to ] , Gladly [ implying with correct attitude and motivation ] , performs that request/task , with anything else entering that dog's mind. That is Obedience as opposed to Complying ,which implies that the dog does what is asked but not of it's own will , not with correct attitude , most often with resentment . Complying is the handler forcing and controlling the dog. Obedience requires an aspect of the dog controlling itself with the purpose achieving a goal with the handler and Compliance does not een though the dog performs.
A dog not biting a baby : That is a decision a dog makes on it's own accord , and in making that decison ther dog has expressed it's own will , self control . A dog can be taught to control itself and to follow rules , but a dog can also break rules too . How many times a dog will out , the bite again when having been told to out ?
A dog can also refuse to have self contol too . Why on earth do you think that some dogs are called " Protestors " , You know these dogs : the dogs that would not even balk at turing round and tagging the handler. They do not want to be controlled not do they desirte to have impulse control . self control . For if they did .. they would never ever even thing about protesting and biting the handler.
To add , for those that know the ' Premack Principle ' , for dogs do Deductively Reason [ they cannot Inductively Reason ] , they know that means the dog indded does comprehend : " If this .... then that ... " . If I control myself and sit ... then I get a cookie. If I out.... then I can get another biter . If I control myself in heel postion sitting ... then I get sent for a bite . If a give attention to my handler while heeling ...I get sent for a bite.
Dogs can and do learn to control themselves very very easily . For example , as a dog that pulls . This is simple to teach self control to the dog. The dog pulls , then nothing happens . Yet the dog learns that if he keeps still then that ' keeping himself still ' , that conteol of himself , will bring him forward movement .. he is allowed to walk forward . Again , you don't even ever have the need to say a word to the dog to accomplich this . A dog learns to control his pulling on it's own accords with you doing and saying nothing. IT is the dog's choiuce to pull or not pull . If I dont pull , i.e. control myself , then I get to walk / move forward .. Dogs are not stupid and can think and figure out what controlling themsleves has for benefits.
by ValK on 12 August 2019 - 15:08
are you sure that that dog will act in same way if handler would be absent, surrounding circumstances, irritating factors had become somewhat different than in learning scenario?
dog's ability to be in selfcontrol foremost rely on dog's innate intelligence.
dog can be really stuppid and act exclusively by the instinct and impulses. and that trait isn't hard to track back to dog's parents and from them to grand parents. trend of today's choleric, impulsive, easily trigged up GSDs in so call working lines can be quite proof of this, regardless how good their predecessors were taught to "selfcontrol".
same can be said about smart dogs. strong, smart, calm, confident pair will produce offspring in whom prevail similar trait and this trend of selfcontrol in behavior can be noticed in pups very much before they began any training.
by Centurian on 12 August 2019 - 17:08
That is not an etirely valid question that you asked BE because those that are experienced know that dogs are context specific learners that are poor generalizers. Some behaviors will translate . But that question is similar to asking a person this question : now that you have taught your dog to come to you , will that dog come to you in other situations - and the Correct Answer to that question is : It All Depends .
I won't insult you by asking you why ' it all depends' for the sake of people just beginning to teach their dog the answer that I gave is 100% true and to be fair I will explain . If you teach a dog to come stright into to you from 10 feet away in an exact place . Then that is what gthe dog learns ... EXACTLY THAT . That is to say a dog coming straight to you , is not the same as a dog coming to you 10 feet out from a 45 degree angle to the left , is not the sdame as the dog 10 feet out 45 degree to the right , as it is different for you facing a dog 10 feet in front of you as opposes to your back facing the dog 10 feet away. So .... Many Exercises taught to the dog are multi-variable and , not all , but many exercises we have to include those variable to truly say we have taught the dog. I said that we have taught . That is to say, we cannot assume because we teach within 1 or 2 variables that the dog automatically has learned or knows. So when we teach the dog for example to out, we have to teqch out from many things .. meaning eventually to the dog , everything. Also I teach the dog here and there , eventually meaning everywhere. This time and that time , eventually meaning all the time no matter what - decoy standing still , decoy moving , night time , daytime etc etc etc .
Valk innateness and intelligence go hand in hand , but they are not the same. A dog can be very very very intelligent but be unwilling to come off a bite or to have the synergy to want to work with the handler. . Some dogs can be very very intelligent but that innateness [ temperament] lends the dog to be very reactive to stimuli that over rides that dog's intelligence - it is impulsive , it lacks impulse control. . I have worked a good number of dogs that I say : teach them correctly , and they just won't come off the bite [ genetically flawed they are ] or I just twitched and they can not hold their position near the handler , for they drool for that bite. They cannot or they have a hard time controlling themselves. Sharp dogs ... they have an exaggerated response to stimuli , they often have a harder time controlling themselves., And many times by the time the handler is aware of their behavior , their exaggerated response., that response is over and done with even before the handler has chance to address it or reacts to it. Why do we call dogs with exaggerated responses reactive. - because they lack the ability to control themselves and they are impulsive.
Valk , you arre correct about your reference to the parents producing the off sprong that lends to self control .. because .. self control is correlated and based upon the Temperament , Mentality / Genetics . If the parents don't have the traits involved in the ability to control one slef, then they cannot be passed on to the progeny .