New does not = uneducated or ignorant - Page 1

I must say I'm writing this with much contempt...And much Respect. I value this board for it's educational promotions ! That being said here we go... I have been told here on this board, That the following is correct, though I don't agree. Working Lines = working German Shepherds (no confimation) Show Lines = Show German Shepherds (no working ability) Am Show Lines = Idiots (No working ability, No confirmation, No Brains) again reinterating that I do not agree with the above sums. I have been told also that by pedigree alone select people who frequent this board can tell me exactly what any dog will and will not do ? Please enlighten ! and honestly if your that good I want to hire you full time as my personal consultant, Talent like that is priceless!! (honestly if it were that simple, we would have no use for KKL, Sch trials, SV shows, AKC shows, or anything else we would breed on pedigree alone) Genetics are not that perfect!!! I thought when I bought a German Shepherd, that I was buying a German shepherd, I did not know that I was buying some mixed breed mutt ! But according to some who frequent this board, because my dogs have a little of all in the pedigrees my dogs are nothing but Mutts! I used to think German shepherd = German Shepherd, balanced, structured, Solid Temperament, Exceptional Family companion and protector, Exceptional Herding Partner, Exceptional K-9 partner and drug detection, Exceptional Search and Rescue, Exceptional Therapy dogs, Exceptional seeing eye dogs, These dogs are supposed to Excell at all of these jobs, (yes I included Family companion as a JOB) and so many more ! NOT JUST ONE !!!!! Why is everyone so hell bent on EXTEMES !! Show line group, hell bent on extremes (so says the working people) Working Line group, hell bent on extremes (says themselves) I don't even know what to say on the AM show lines. (they don't show up much, can't see why ? with all the hostility around here) But WHY ?? Why is everyone seperating these LINES like they are seperate BREEDS,,, THEY ARE NOT !!! Unless of course I have been horribly deceived by AKC, and 1000's of breeders. If I have in fact purchased some mixed breed MUTT then someone please put me out of my misery and yours. I have my beleif, my beleif is that German Shepherds originated in Germany they were ORIGINALLY a DEVOTED WORKING PARTNER (used to herd sheep) and LOVED FAMILY MEMBER !!! AM I wrong ???? If I am correct I am going to continue to breed for those sound Working Partners and Family members and will NOT perceive myself to be breeding Mutts ! You all know I am new, But please for that reason alone do not think of me as uneducated, I am here to learn from those who have the expertise, and who clearly are PRESERVING the INTEGRITY of the GERMAN SHEPHERD DOG !!! There is only one German Shepherd dog. Not 10 variety's of it, JUST ONE ! On the same note, I do not deny there are character differences in the LINES, I am not that ignorant. But how can people say they are different BREEDS ? They ARE ALL Registered as GERMAN SHEPHERD right? One thing I have learned from this board, Is this.. I will NEVER Breed on Pedigree, I will meet a dog, study his temperament, view his structure, and make my decisions based on TRUTH and REAL. So for that I owe a big Thanks to all. This is one very valuable thing I have learned here, Hope to continue to keep learning.

well said except for the herding part which i guess wuld not much come in use these days we all expect our german sheperds to do be as u described

To a certain extent, some lines have already been bred to such extremes and with such a different goal in mind compared to the other lines that they can rightfully be called a seperate breed...example, mixing an American Show Shepherd with a working line...while the resulting offspring will look like a German Shepherd, you can only throw dice to guess what the temperament will turn out (as well as conformation). Almost muttlike then. And you may or may not get offspring with working abilities and/or good enough conformation to show, again, like a mutt, you cannot tell if they will pass these characteristics down (e.g. in mutt mixes the second generation is usually very unpredictable). With this in mind, pedigree is a very good tool to use because many genes and characteristics that may not show themselves in the parents may crop up in the offspring, and so on. So you need a fair idea of what's behind the dogs you are breeding. On the other hand, that should not be the only basis for breeding; you should still be able to vouch for the parents. In other words you have to look at the whole picture. And again, keeping in mind that because of the extremes certain sides have gone to (some of them being bred the way they are for DECADES, which is the same amount of time you can take in making a breed and getting it to breed through), mixing them would mean more work, less significant results, and so on. To a lesser extent, different lines don't necessarily mean different breeds (i.e. Czech-DDR-West working lines). But you have to look at what your dog is coming from and what you are hoping to achieve before you go beyond that. Breeding for extremes can be devastating to the breed, but for some this is the only way as they are breeding for a certain purpose. To get to that purpose, 'mediocre' results are not good enough.

By the way... Being a mutt isn't necessarily a crime. :) Dog breeds are only mutts...with set standards. Some dog breeds use temperament as this 'standard'. Hence, the dogs don't look a thing alike, but mostly work the same. How do you classify these dogs then? And so on and so forth. Registration, in the end, has very little in defining what your dog is. It is just what, anyway, numbers and so on? I like to think of it this way: I don't care what breed or lines a dog is used as long as the breeder's goal is to produce the type of dog I have in mind. And as far as I'm concerned, mixing extremes of dog type will most likely not meet my demands. Even if the AKC thinks they're both German Shepherds.

echo, my best advice to you is the same as was given to me. have what YOU want for dogs, train in the way YOU want them trained and enjoy them for themselves. though i am hardly a newbie to gsds, my hubby and i have had them, raised and trained them for roughly 25 yrs, we still fall under a lot of criticism from folks who think they "know better." i will agree that extremes and breeding for extremes is detrimental to the breed and to balance in general. however, you cannot really influence the thinking of others. they will believe as they choose and to continue trying to influence causes you nothing but frustration. trust me. there are others out there who look for the "whole dog." it will brighten your day when you find them. keep contact with them and forget the folks who cause you anguish. best of luck to YOU and YOUR dogs. :) pjp

Echo you have the right idea and Ziegenfarm is correct. It doesn't seem to matter what you have in bloodlines for a GSD, someone will step forward to critisise it because they like what "they" have. The "standards" are up to individual interpretation and it is why there is differences in the different bloodlines. It is also easier for some people when things are black and white, ex. DDR is it, Czeck is it, W. Ger. show is it,etc. It seems to me if you are breeding and you have 2 partners that have the traits you like then chances are they have the geneology to produce those traits no matter what the bloodlines. It is called a type to type breeding. Yes there will be differences in the offspring, but there is in any litter, the pups are not clones. So just enjoy your dogs and try to ignore (its hard I know) other peoples ideas. Remember there is no perfect anything....

Trailrider brings up a point I will briefly expound upon. Sometimes(more often than not, I can assure you) they like what you have better than what they have themselves and envy is a powerful emotion to have to deal with if one is not properly "grounded". At any rate, enjoy your dog(s) and your relationship with them, compete against the written standard and your own weaknesses to become stronger, and to hell with the rest of it. Stephen

Echo,you are on the right track. Extremes aren't good for any breed of anything,get what you like,be responsible and enjoy your dogs. I have also found that many people are jealous when you have succeeded in having what they don't believe exists because they don't have it.or they do believe it exists and are jealous you have it and not them. I run into it all the time.

Wow.. You guys I honestly thought I would be banned for life from this data base for that post. Thank You, I am going to do as you have all suggested enjoy my dogs in the happy medium and go for it, Someday I will be there in the big ring with my medium mutt smiling ear to ear and hope you all will be there to enjoy it as well. Thank You Thank You for not making me feel like a moron. This is why I come here !! Sound advice is so powerful ! Thank You all again.

YOU R IN THE RITE SPOT FOR SOLID INFORMATION! YOU WILL FIND MOST OF THE RESPONDERS ARE SINCERE AND WILLING TO HELP YOU WITH YOUR GSD ISSUES.