What test needs to be done before breeding? - Page 1

OK I was just on "prices of puppies" and Preston bought up testing. I myself is new to "THIS" world of shepherds (sadly I was misguided with the American shepherds and did not know any better) Now that I have my new working Czech dogs I want to do right by the breed and better them. I have done prelimbs at 12 months and they are DNA tested (both males and females) I am sending away for the long coat gene DNA. What else do I need to check for? and are they really needed and why? TEACH ME PLEASE

Hemophelia the blood disorder found in males that is passed to his offspring. Thyroid, eyes, heart. All females should have a brucellosis test before each breeding. I beleive all are needed, why because all things are serious and can be passed to their young. Good luck!

Did you have prelim xrays on hips AND elbows??? I would also recommend a vaginal culture and sensitivity on the female as well.. I usually start mine on Orbax, Baytril when they go into heat and have a head start in case the culture comes back with a growth (and usually something will grow)... In addition to haemophilia A, there is von Willebrands Disease .. both males and females should have a brucellosis done and males should also have a seminal fluid culture especially for mycoplasma......

THINK BEFORE BREED ANY GSD ! YOU SHOULD KNOW WHAT WORKING DRIVES AND TEMPERAMENT SHOULD BE. I ONLY BREED DOGS WITH WORKING TITLES OR CERTIFICATIONS. THE ONLY WAY TO CONSISTENTLY PRODUCE THE DRIVES,TEMPERAMENT AND STABILITY NEEDED TO WORK,IS TO BREED DOGS WHO HAVE SUCCESSFULLY COMPLETED A TRAINING PROGRAM. POTENTIAL AND PEDIGREE ARE JUST NOT ENOUGH,IF YOU WANT TRUE WORKING DRIVES AND STABILITY. THERE ARE NO TESTING PROCEDURES THAT CAN MIMIC THE PRESSURE THAT A FULL TRAINING PROGRAM PRODUCES. THE PRESSURE OF TRAINING AND TITLING/CERTIFYING IN A WORKING FIELD OF ENDEAVOR IS WHAT CAUSES HIDDEN FAULTS TO COME TO LIGHT IN DRIVE,STABILITY AND NERVES,AT THE VERY LAST MINUTE,SHOWING THAT THE DOG IS NOT WHAT THE POTENTIAL APPEARED TO BE AND THEREFORE,NOT BREEDWORTHY. THE PURPOSE OF A TITLE OR WORKING CERTIFICATION IS,ALSO,TO HAVE THE DOG'S ABILITIES EVALUATED BY SOMEONE OTHER THAN ITS OWNER/TRAINER/ BREEDER .IT IS SIMPLY NOT REASONABLE TO EXPECT PARENTS THAT HAVEN'T-TO PRODUCE PUPS THAT CAN,WITH ANY CONSISTENCY.REGARDLESS OF BLOODLINE,WHO THE VENDOR OR BREEDER IS,RESEARCH BEFORE YOU PURCHASE!!!!A SPORT TITLE DOES NOT NECESSARILY INDICATE REAL WORKING DRIVES AND TEMPERAMENT FOR YOUR NEEDS . TAKE A LOOK AT THE BIG PICTURE LOOK OUT SIDE OF THE BOX . JUST MY THOUGHT ON THIS I HOPE YOU GET WHAT I AM SAYING OK . So with that said please understand that I hope you continue to try to improve the GSD breed by working and breeding dogs that are truly BREEDWORTHY . I get upset with breeders who just think that because its a GSD import / or from import lines that is a TOP of the line GSD and will work . Take a look at the dog this is the only way to know what you will produce is if you work the dog . I want you to grow in your knowledge in this sport/breed , but you must be open to what others have to say about your dogs and how we feel they work and their drives and so on . I am one that is a FIRM on that the WORKING LINES GSD ARE NOT PETS AND SHOULD NOT BE SOLD AS SUCH . THis is what I have to Say about what the GSD Should be ! "We need a working dog and not a family dog," They demand hardness, courage, fight drive and a "certain natural sharpness.This kind of GSD is not for all people but this is what they was created to be a working dog , I tell people all the time if you want a pet look at some other breeds . If you have a litter and some of the pups are good for work and some of them are not and are just good for pets you sould please reconsider what your breeding as your litters have no CONSISTENCY.

K-9 Helser, I must respectfully disagree with your insistance that a sire or dam should have working titles. I have seen a number of such dogs that are faulty temperament-wise and have way too much prey drive and are canine nerve-endings, hyperactively pacing constantly when awake, thus making poor personal companions or pets (many of these dogs have mild EPI and a long and stringly with no angulations or croup and very incorrect to the standard). A correctly structured, normally temperamented GSD can be trained to do anything and has a proper balance between drives while having great character, integrity, great mental soundness and stability, fearlessness, great poise, and loyalty and devotion to its master and family. The key here is to become well aware of the sire and dam, what is behind them, and how they act in public. An experienced breeder can easily identify normal GSD temperament when he or she sees it. Over the last 40 years I have seen a number of Sch trained working line dogs (some were big winners in profung) that had such normal temperament (still a minority), and also a number of high showline bred dogs with Sch degrees with such normal temperament and some from both with no training other than basic obediance which had normal temperament. Unfortunately many dogs in so called "working lines" or profung have been bred to have abnormal temperament. Many of these are not really GSDs anymore but have become a breed by themseklves similar to a malinois, in my view. They are not correct to the standard in mind or body. What one should breed for is the "total GSD" with NORMAL GSD temeperament, as specified by the esteemed Captain Von Stephanitz. Normal temperament (if the puppy is adequately socialized with other dogs and people) allows a GSD to live in a home with young kids, and yet have the capacity to be trained to do any kind of work all the way from therapy dog to police dog to search and rescue. I think the TLI for EPI is a must for anyone who wants to breed healthy GSDs. Also, thyroid testing is a good idea.

Wow to above Reply... So sch 3 dogs will produce drive, hardness, courage, and confidence. But if not forget it ? I must disagree and maybe I am wrong and I would be willing to accept that if I am, But here ya go anyway, We had purchased 2 females (not Titled) Out of Titled parents though. But the females were not titled as the people who had them were not interested in Sch. Well we bred them to a K-9 male very nice ped. lots of titles all the way through tops and bottoms. However he is not titled, He is only K-9 Cert. But one FEMALE pup from this breeding is showing Hardness of a MALE, now that's not from me, That's from training directors, and other members of our club, They love her and SHE is only 11 months old. Out of the two litters 2 females are in Therapy, 1 in SAR, 4 in Sch training, 2 in Narcots detection. thats just females, The males, 3 in sch. 1 in AKC Obedience competition, one is a pet as they have no ambition, (too bad he's nice) I guess the point I'm trying to make is this... I think alot of a dogs potential has much to do with owner ambition. Now don't get me wrong I beleive in Titles as well, But also agree that Title does not make the whole dog, and just becauase both parents are titled does not mean you will ABSOLUTELY get uniformity in a litter, At least that has been my expeirience. We are working on Several dogs in Sch training right now to acheive titles as we too beleive in doing things right, But I don't beleive in just going out and buying Titles ONLY. You have to look at the big pictures and see the whole dog as you said Titles are not always a complete package. Temperaments are a must for us, We want Confident, Prey Driven, Reliable dogs that are well put together with no health issues, The True German Shepherd Dog could work all day and come home and be a much loved family MEMBER, Not just something to be stowed away in a kennel for fear of inappropriate behavior in the home. That's what we are aiming to. I do beleive these WORKING DOGS can also be productive FAMILY MEMBERS, Is it not what the GSD was meant ? and please I'm not trying to tick anyone here I am just trying to get everything strait as I may have been mislead and there fore would need some corrections and am willing to hear about it and take all into consideration. I'm not a Twit minded Turd and do have a great deal of respect for those who's knowledge can be passed down for all us Newbies to learn from. Good Post EKVonEarhardt !!!! I look forward to the diverse comments that may be offered. :-)

my above post should have been directed to 2 posts above. to comments by K-9 Hesler. sorry bout that.

Titles should be a part of the overall picture of the dog. Sometimes titles are failed due to things as simple as the handler getting nervous, gunfire across the street, or any of a number of things. It is not ALWAYS the fault or shortcoming of the dog. Check what siblings may be producing, if they are being bred already, and of course check health issues, and so on. A show conformation rating is nice too, to ensure/prove that the dog fits within the breed standard physically. Many people go a step beyond and do a breed survey. As far as the temperment that is 'original' in the goals of the breed, I think K9 Helser is interpreting things he may not have read. I refer to some quotes that I posted a short while back - "Earliest criteria by Stephanitz: "any sheepdog living in Germany, which thanks to constant exercising of its sheepdog qualities attains perfection of body and mind in the scope of its utilitarian function is a German Shepherd" And a description of SZ no.1 - Horand von Grafarth - by Stephanitz himself "His character was in line with his external qualities, marvellously loyal and very obedient with respect to his master. Above all he had the disposition of a true gentleman and loved life to the full...well disposed with regard to friendly people, but never a bootlicker, he was also very attracted to children...when someone paid attention to him in the kennel he became the most docile of companions..." Those quotes from the man that 'invented' this working breed. Thinking of herding - the original purpose -, I believe that a good sheepdog must possess a certain amount of stability so that it would not just start a feeding frenzy killing the sheep or lose focus and say, leave the flock to chase after a rabbit, but could still recognise a threat to their safety. He would also have to be able to work long hours and be somewhat independant, yet still listen to the shepherd. He would be protective but not a menace to a neutral person that might be in the vicinity. Please consider the following types of dogs that also "work" beyond the ORIGINAL job of the German Shepherd (herding) - - guide dogs for the blind - Canine Companions for Independance (for those who are physically disabled) - International Association of Assistance Dog partners, which provides dogs trained to assist those who are mentally ill - other animal assisted therapy - hearing assistance dogs - Seizure detection dogs - cancer detection dogs - diabetes detection dogs - termite detection dogs - avalanche dogs - SAR dogs - cadaver dogs - arson dogs - drug dogs - police dogs - military dogs (including here medic dogs, carrier dogs, patrol dogs, mine detection dogs, scout dogs, etc) - sport dogs - not just Schutzhund... German Shepherds can be found doing agility, flyball, AKC tracking, PSA, french and mondio ring, American street ring, KNPV, and more. Schutzhund (and other similar) titles are titles, but should be a piece of the puzzle, not the whole picture. I firmly believe that working dogs CAN be part of a family. I think problems most often arise as a result of the mismanaging of the dogs by the OWNERS, rather than something that is innate in the dog. Owning an extremely intelligent animal with working drives and a need for physical activity is a big responsibility. Not living up to it invites trouble. Does that mean that a 'working dog' cannot live in a home? No. It means that a misunderstood and mismanaged working dog cannot live in a home.

Excellent point LaPorte. I had seen you put this up before, but I guess it can never be stressed enough that our dogs are intended do more than bite a suit or sleeve. You can test for anything and everything and then find out that you bascially have no dogs left to breed with if you are aiming for the trouble free/maintenence free specimen. Bit stepfordish. We are breeding living breathing beings that come with a genetic load that was already present well before Max started dabbling in these dogs. Test for what is sensible and furthers your breeding goals. Common testing with the SV is DNA, HD and ED. Personally I don't see much sense in the coat factor test, will become just another fad. The dogs are not really disadvantaged because they are a coat, other than for "commercial value" perhaps. Don't have enough experience with the EPI but Preston seems rather adamant about it. The perfect litter will never happen, so aim for the whole dog when breeding, not just bits and pieces.

WOW I am glad I posted this thread and Thank you Preston. Well I told you that they were pre-limbed already no I did not do the elbows but will be going them when they turn two. I will be sending a copy to OFA and SV. I have found out the hard way when this is not done. OK on to address Mr. Helser. He knows that my dogs are not titled with ScHH or Police titles due to I was going to get him to title my dogs back a couple months ago and wrote the thread "Does anyone knoe Timmy Helser"? LET NOT REHASH THAT PLEASE!!! But due to a siturations on my end I choose not to send them. But I have started (remember I am new to "this" world) with titles I CAN do. With that comes CGC- Canine Good Citizen all my dogs have this. Then as they turn one We test for THerapy with TDI. If my dog can not pass this then they are spayed (I have had to do it twice). Then on to Obedience titles RN -Rally Novice simple on leash obedience. CD- companion Dog . In the mean time I try my hand at the show ring and have one CH and my male has 2 majors so far This is of coarse with UKC -United Kennel Club Within two weeks we are going for of TT -Temperament testing on my dogs. and in a month will be finishing up my CH on my male. With all of that in the past 8 months we have been working on protection. All my dogs have to be able to take full bites and not show any fear in doing so. All (my male and female) of them will do long sends, full barrel sleeves, hidden sleeves, leg bites and bite suits. and the decoyer does have the stick and pushes them to see if they come off. They are a litte too easy to do a recall (police officers tell me this all the time but I am not a police officer and want that call off not pull off). My female for playtime will find coke and weed in a building/car search we are working with a trainer in a couple of weeks for tracking on human scent to be titled. Also in the coming year we will be getting our FD- Family dog titles, PDA -Protection Dog Alert and PD1 Protection Dog 1 with SDA Service Dog of America though UKC-United Kennel Club. So I am working on titles just not SchH titles YET. All my dogs are family pets as I have them first and fore most to be family protectors and while they are in the house they are loved on. I am sorry I do not feel that a dog 50 ft away from the house let it be kenneled or tie (which IMO the owner should be tied) can fully protect me or my family. So with all that when Preston wrote about these test I want to do what is right by the dogs I know there is no such thing as a perfect dog (some will differ with you on that) but I have been down the OTHER road NOT PRETTY or fun and have learned the hard way. NOW I want to learn the right way. And no the long coat gene is not something I find a must but I do not like long hairs and personally do not want to produce them. So That is for my knowledge. Sorry so long