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by Centurian on 11 June 2019 - 13:06

Valk
I see your point and to a degree , I greatly agree . I saw this video a while back .. And when I watched this video , I was quite upset , This video disturbed me terribly . [ not to mention the helper work was some of the worst that I have seen - I don't care about the credentials mentioned either ] . I cannot stand when I see a video in the dog world when some one wants to promote something .

The whole point of doing bite work with a weak or an unsound dog is not to make them a super star. Any honest , talented person knows that you cannot make a person or a dog what is not . Honest people tell you about the dog and what can be reasonably expected , right up front. Just because a dog bites a tuf we know that does not mean 'protection' just as in IPO Sport the bite work is not ' real protection ' work . { BTW that is why it is a sport]

When we worked such dogs we never ever ever took money , not 1 penny . In our club , there was no club dues , we had little monetary expense , but currently the whole dog world seems to be based on money and/or membership . Unfrotunately the dog world has turned into Business , strictly business for ther most part. So the inference that some one pay money to make this dog " a protection ' dog - Well , intensely I agree with you and I will add , it is criminal in a sense.

However Valk , to take any weak dog or unsound dog and to have it accomplish/ achieve in some endeavor , scent work , bite work , agility ... and so on ... is the best thing someone could do with the dog . Because in achieving and accomplishment , although we cannot change the genetics of the dog we can greatly change the charater of the dog and enhance the human and canine bond REALATIONSHIP . For most peopleTHAT is what matters most of all . Not everyone has or needs a super protection dog .. Sometimes people simply want a dog to love andto live with .. and that is somethijg this forum so often misses or fails to understand . So Valk , having written that - this is not waste of time when you do something with your dog.

emoryg

by emoryg on 11 June 2019 - 13:06

I agree with Apple on training your dog in drive.  Your dog is carrying a ball in a picture, so maybe he has good drive for using the toys.  Food is a great motivator, as is a dog’s desire to please his handler if you build the right relation.  There is a litany of books and videos that can help guide you along.  If you like the classics, there is a book from Fred Beckman titled, Love, Praise and Reward.  It was published sometime in the 70s.  I received a copy as a birthday present.  It was the first book I read that covered training with food to shape behaviors.  The author explains how to use food to attract and maintain your dog’s attention, how to properly hold the food to maneuver your dog into the correct positions, proper luring and marking of behaviors with food, etc.  I saw older military dog training manuals that also covered food based training, even though praise was the method of choice for the dogs of that era as they were selected in part for their desire to please the handler.

In the late 80s a friend of mine showed me how to use poly ropes (thick ropes about 16 inches long melted on the end to prevent fraying) as a reward system and leant me a book on gundog training that explained the methodology of using retrieving dummies to teach basic and advanced obedience by rewarding the dog with biting the dummy.  My friend used the ropes as the German Shepherds would pop the dummies.  I returned the book and cannot remember when it was published. I will see if I can locate the author and title.  These early books are priceless and cover great training advice.  Many of the books today are takeoffs on these methods with different terminology suggested to avoid copyright infringement and to promote marketing strategies.  It may be cheaper to purchase the newer books, with the added advantage of what current terminology is currently being marketed.  Youtube has a wide assortment of training videos.  Just be careful and use common sense on watching them.

I am curious as to what goals you have in your protection training?  Do you want to do some type of bitesport or is it for personal/home protection?

by ValK on 11 June 2019 - 14:06

centurian, i do not object an idea of dog's selfconfidence improvement. i just don't see a sense to do that through bite work.
if dog was born fearful, shy... teaching bite is just an attempt to cheat mother nature. there are other, more suitable methods
for improvement, which not involve any sort of aggression and overwhelming stress.

emoryg, it seems like this is first GSD of OP and main goal is to learn about breed's ability and training.
youtube has way too many videos of how do not train your dog but to distinguish them, one already must have practical experience.

by apple on 11 June 2019 - 15:06

Valk,
When you say the videos show how to distinguish your dog and not train them, do you mean they show how to get precise, flashy obedience and bite work?

by ValK on 11 June 2019 - 16:06

on youtube way too many amateurish videos, in which people pretend to be pros.
truth is - majority of youtube videos about dogs training must be disregarded.
but to do so, one, who watches them, must have practical knowledge and experience, to recognize what is wrong in those videos.

but sure, any training should begin from evaluation of dog's suitability for a desirable purpose.

by Centurian on 11 June 2019 - 16:06

Valk
I agree as I had written that many endeavors can change the character of the dog and make that dog better overall .

Philosophically ..... ? what do dogs do ....... they don't have hands ... they bite ! That is inherent in an animals , for they do bite , yes ?

If you have not rehabilitated dogs , worked weaker dogs , then you may not realize the power of making that dog better through biting. How do I know .... because I have experience doing exactly that . As a matter of fact , what we did with the dogs was Schutzhund , because in Schutzhund every skill and discipline is undertaken by that dog. They must jump over a hurdle , agility , do OB and use their nose tracking .

The bite ..... in essence involves everything about that dog. BTW - that is what they grade the bite work : V , G , Unsatifactory .The bite is the reflection of how it thinks , how it feels , it's character... The ' bite ' is the manifestation of that dog : it's character as well as it's temperament . BTW there is no cheating , for you cannot and the intention is not , to change the dog from what it is . Rather the intention is to help it become what it is through character building. Like bootcamp for troubled kids , you will not make them soldiers, but you can increase their confidence , and aid them to be able cope with life etc etc.

by apple on 11 June 2019 - 17:06

Centurian,
I think there is a caveat to your comments. IMO, you can raise a dog's thresholds, leading to a stronger, more confident dog and you can also simply mask weaknesses and the two results are very different. Sometimes decoys will let a dog "win" too much and the dog doesn't have to push through the stress which is what raises his threshold for flight. When that happens, the dog might look more confident topographically, but when pressure is reapplied, the dog will likely fold.

by Centurian on 11 June 2019 - 21:06

Yes Apple , that is 100% true . When a dog is stressed it reverts back to it's foundation . But the interacting of the dog is not meant to make the dog a winner , a protector or an acceptable so called ' working dog' but rather a better dog than it is. . The bite work is not to make the dog a protection dog. So you are right in that there is that caveat .

I have worked with all kinds of dogs under the sun with many many people . I have worked with the people and the dogs that are the most elite. But what is important to most people : is to be able to live with your dog and have it adjust to how we live our lives. On that note , it is better to give a dog some semblance of confidence , some self esteem , some ability to cope , or to enhance the trust in it's owner , than be a sad case ...

As I stated we cannot ever change the genetics of a dog or make it what it is not. Increasing the character does not change the genetics.... But to have less genetic make up for some person or dog and to not try to help that person or dog in every day life is __?__ .

Apple , your last post highlights the need for accurate assessment of the dog and truthful explanation to the owner about the dog's abilities , temperament and real expectations for each and every individual dog . . 



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