A hint of "Garbage" genetics can make a very good dog? - Page 4

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by ToneGJ on 07 June 2019 - 22:06

Linda, heres the deal with Jenna, she actually wasn't even 100% White Shepherd. Jenna has a black and tan dog(Brec's Midnight Thunder) in her sireline which is probably what brought out that dark nose pigment. A lot of questionable, unorthodox breeding in my dogs DAMS Pedigree.

by Hundmutter on 08 June 2019 - 06:06

No, I can see that by just looking at her photo TBH. They often aren't. Deliberately bred 'White Shepherds', I mean, as opposed to GSDs which happen to be white. In either case, Jenna could easily have had coloured dogs closer to her than 'her sireline'; one or both actual parents if they were both carrying the necessary genes to pair. When the German breed Standard was originally put together, it got stated that white was undesirable; but dogs that did not have black pigment on faces and paws were even less required as probably they would be Albino, and nobody wanted albinism, anywhere. I'm paraphrasing here. Actually white dogs with lack of black pigment are not all albinos, at all. They are mostly just dogs whose colouring (or lack of it) allows for less strong pigment as part of the pattern.  White coated GSDs with strong pigment for nose and paw pads existed but were always fairly rare - leading to suspicions from some that in the development of the specifically White lines here and the US, and particularly in the 'creation' of the WSS / BBS 'breed', which relies quite heavily on at least facial black pigment, something like Samoyeds had been introduced at some point - which those breeders deny, of course.

'MrGSD' Fred Lanting was quite interesting on the topic of white GSDs / WSS in an article I read recently - I'll try to find it for here.

by apple on 10 June 2019 - 11:06

It sounds like the obedience foundation was done with compulsion only, which I don't think is a good idea. It affects a dog's work ethic. He learns from the beginning that when he doesn't know what to do because he hasn't learned a behavior, that he will be punished. I think training in drive is the way to go and that is a whole different skill set. I don't know what level of prey drive your dog has, but if he has good prey drive, I would go back and learn how to train him in drive with a toy and food. It is not about flash or "sportism" but more about the dog enjoying the work and his work ethic and attitude about training. Different people have different points of view, but I have come to believe that the decoy making a lot of prey movements with the prey object is not the best way to go because it is essentially begging the dog to bite. If your dog has the desire to bite, the decoy should just be able to present the pillow and the dog will bite it. He might have to initially make prey with the prey object, but should wean the dog off of that approach ASAP because in a real life situation, a bad guy is not going to be stimulating your dog in prey. There is a difference in the approach I am talking about and deliberately pushing your dog into defense, even though, he might perceive the decoy as a threat by facing him and holding the pillow, leading him to respond in defense. It depends on your dog's temperament, drive thresholds, nerves, etc.

by apple on 10 June 2019 - 11:06

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nMoLZsTy1LOHere is an example of what I am talking about. Notice he makes a distinction between teaching the dog to bite on command vs. the decoy triggering the dog to bite by stimulating his prey drive by popping the sleeve up.

by apple on 10 June 2019 - 11:06

Here is an example of what I am talking about. Notice he makes a distinction between teaching the dog to bite on command vs. the decoy triggering the dog to bite by stimulating his prey drive by popping the sleeve up.  I can't get the link to work so just Google, "Balabanov video teaching bite on command."  Maybe an administrator can make the link correctly and live.

by Centurian on 10 June 2019 - 12:06

Apple ... yes !
What Apple is addressing in simplicity is essential and critically important too and that is : ' the reason the dog will bite ' **** , which also is influenced by the cue that prompts the bite. However , I get back to the point : ' the dog must want to bite [ enjoy the biting] as opposed to the feeling and notion that he has to bite [ forced due to being afraid or being defensive ] . Apple explains quite well what should be done .. nice post Apple ...

I have't seen that video by Balabanov .. anyway... I personally would teach the dog to bite , to bark ,and many concepts , outside any training session first . This could easily be taught in your kitchen - first teach the dog to bite anything , you could start with a piece of meat , a toy , . Just present to the dog what you want to bite and as the dog bites into that item , associate the word you chose , bite , fass , paken , , any word you choose. Then generalize that cue / behavior of biting to different things until you know the dog will bite when cued / told to do so . Then I would put that learned concept into a bite session . I teach this to pups 10 weeks pld using a flirt ple . The split second that they are biting the rag I associate the word " fass ".

by duke1965 on 10 June 2019 - 14:06

a good dog, you dont need to teach him to bite, you only need to teach control Wink Smile

furthermore, most of todays breeding are a hint of garbage genetics where every now and then something nice drops out Shades Smile

by ValK on 10 June 2019 - 19:06


Absolutely work this dog in bite work if you can

here is video of "sense of accomplishment , which build character and self esteem" :)

what a waste of time, effort and perhaps someone's wallet.

by ToneGJ on 10 June 2019 - 21:06

Again, everyone, thank you, thank you, thank you! This is all VERY useful info that i'm reading and will definitely keep everything in mind.

@apple, it's very hard for me to determine his charachteristics. He's pretty driven IMO, if I have the ball, I have his undivided attention. As far as nerves etc. I cant tell(dont really know how.)
Was very submissive and kind of a wuss as a pup, but he seems to have matured very slow, he get's more confident each session. As far as his OB work, I guess you could say it was "compulsive", but his corrections were NEVER rough. If i'm on top of my game, so is he. If i'm not feeling it, he doesn't either.

by apple on 11 June 2019 - 10:06

Sounds like he might be handler sensitive as opposed to being handler hard, meaning he acts submissive or like his feelings are hurt if he gets a correction. That doesn't necessarily mean he will be sensitive to a decoy or bad guy. How do you use the ball with him and is it a ball on a string? Nerves can be tested in a lot of ways and some dogs can appear to have very good nerves and then you find one thing that rattles them a little to a lot. You look for things like noise sensitivity (gunfire, lightening, etc.) and also look for how he does on different surfaces like slick floors during bite work or metal grates or metal stairways. There are almost endless things to look for. I've seen a dog that looked solid nerve wise and one day a hot air balloon flew by at a very low altitude and the firing up of the gas and the size of the balloon unnerved the dog some. I would look into learning how to train a dog in drive if your dog has decent prey drive.

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