A hint of "Garbage" genetics can make a very good dog? - Page 2

Pedigree Database


by Hundmutter on 06 June 2019 - 06:06

Well there isn't such a lot of difference between a 15 month old and an 18 month old, is there ? Either way this is still a very immature animal. (Could be either, from the pics).

Hey, I did say that it's a matter of luck, what happens along the way. And I wish the OP "good luck" with his dog. Of course. But it is always worth warning people that while they may be pleased as punch with their first aquisiition, its useful for them (and other readers) to bear in mind that things can go wrong.

Agreed absolutely about Sunny's conformation assessment, [which I could have included yet deliberately didn't, for those who think I am being unecessarily harsh on the OP !]; am leaving it to the 'working folk' to comment on how much potential is shown in the OP's 'ragging' vid.

Sorry Antonio, I don't mean to come down on you like the proverbial 'ton of bricks'; but what do you regard as your 'beginners mistake' ?: the typo, or the failure to research any breed before you bought it (for whch I sincerely believe there is no excuse, these days), or the generally self-congratulatory tone of your first post ?

Ignore me; I probably got out of the wrong side of bed.  Linda.

by apple on 06 June 2019 - 10:06

In the protection work, his strikes are not strong and he doesn't want to possess the prey and immediately drops it.


by Sunsilver on 06 June 2019 - 14:06

Hund, yeah, I avoided mentioning the conformation until the OP talked about people wanting to breed to him, and for the same reason.

Given the OP said 'no' to his friends, I'm assuming he already realizes there's far more to breeding than having an intact male and a female in heat! Like health checks, titles, and allowing the dog to fully mature so you can have a better idea of what his potential really is.

Q Man

by Q Man on 06 June 2019 - 14:06

You have to remember that when you're breeding...You're not only breeding the Sire & Dam but you're also breeding on all their ancestors...So you get influence off everything in their pedigree...


by ToneGJ on 06 June 2019 - 16:06

@Hundmutter. My beginners mistake referred to as my lack of research. You can come down like a "ton of bricks" all of you'd like😁, I don't offend easily. Life is all about trial and error and I admitted to my error, all i'm saying is that i'm lucky with what I got. He's healthy, straight back, athletic etc and i'm simply putting it out that I could still have a very good dog on my hands, regardless of his DNA. Maybe you could learn to read sligntly in-between the lines as you're making it sound as if i'm boasting(about my mistake? Imagine that). Maybe you just needed your morning coffee😁.

As far as the video goes: I never did any form of sleeve work/prey drive drills, or even agitation for that matter when he was a pup. This was his first ever session of any sort and these were his first responses. Thanks all!

by apple on 06 June 2019 - 17:06

Your dog didn't look so bad considering that was his first session. I think one of your biggest challenges will be to find a really good decoy to teach your dog the correct skills and to teach you how to handle your dog. The person working your dog looked like he knows something about bite work, but it can make a huge difference to work with a very knowledgeable and skilled decoy. Finding such a person is a problem a majority of people have. But it looks likes your dog definitely has something to bring to the training. He came into drive well and didn't look unsure. Even though his strikes were a little lacking, his grip looked good. How did you train his obedience?

I would get rid of the burlap and get a good bite pillow.  Here is a link to a quality bite pillow with a leather bite surface that requires the dog to bite hard to keep his grip.  Jute and burlap allow a dog to get an "accidental" bite because their teeth can get caught in the holes of the fabric.



by Sunsilver on 06 June 2019 - 19:06

I agree, given that was his first session, he definitely has potential!

Apple has given some good advice above ^^

by ToneGJ on 06 June 2019 - 19:06

@Apple/Sunsilver, that's the kind of feedback i'm looking for, and I greatly appreciate that! I have found another decoy that works specifically in defense, and not sport. The man you see working my dog is actually his schools instructor. I trained his BO with Prong Corrections. He is enrolled at K9 Safety Consultants here in Michigan, and is beginning his Advanced Obediance next week.

I will also look into those bite pillows as well. Any other things I could do for his drive? Thanks for the kind responses, again!

by Centurian on 06 June 2019 - 21:06

Your dog has potential .
Take Apple's advise . I did not like that first session in the least, it IMOp very poor . . My intention is not to be critical but I am trying to be constructive for you . Apple is correct , you need to work with someone that reallly really knows how to work with a dog to bring out in the dog the best for what you want to achieve.

As far as the bite pillow is concerned. I understand what and why Apple has suggested that . But two apsects on my mind watching that video. Your dog was not entirely comfortable ,at least not the way I would 'set' the dog. He has a good bite in the sense that he bit with a full mouth- that's all . That is something that I liked . But the presentation of the rag for him starting out was all off , IMOp , and that I believe is why your dog felt a bit uncomfortable [ other factors come into play ] . So the helper has to make a more appropriate presentation to the dog. The helper has to better present himself to the dog and better interact with the dog, for the dog to be better.

Even if this was the first time.... what did the dog learn ? The dog learned that he can weakly bite and spit the article out. One of the first aspects I teach a pup , a pup 10 weeks old at that, is : to bite hard , full and fast . So IMOp , this dog has to be motivated to and learn to : bite hard and [grip] hold that bite hard - before he does anything else .. . That is to say , perhaps a bit more rag work with this dog , a leather rag , for example , before I ask the dog to bite larger objects . The leather rag will be easier for him to clench harder and to grip and to teach him to hold /maintain that grip . Then I would procede to a bigger object such as Apple stated a bite pad or bite tug. Apple is correct , but as a preference I would give smaller object to instill the skill . Biting smaller object iseasier tom bite , yes ? That is to say , work on , teach one , skill at a time. Don't let the dog drop the article anymore until he has gripped it hard and hopefully full. That is to say ,maintain the backpressure on the bite object such that he won't let go . When you change objects or when you use different materials you perhaps will see a slight faulter in his bite. That is normal for some dogs because many dogs have preverences for the texture of materials , but he will accomodate to new materials .

Also the helper has to get the dog in a better state . I never ever throw an object to the dog , if I am pressuring the dog or if I am fleeing from the dog , I always always want the dog to be stepping forward towards me to get the bite . This will give the dog empowerment , and after he has friped the bite I run away ...

Some dogs have extemely low motivation to chase after an article to bite , others are highly motivated. But the presentation to the dog to trigger him to chase for the bite is important . The dog spitting out the tug signifies " ok I had enough of this articel I do not want it , take it ". As I said this dog was not entirely comfortable and I think that is part of why he did not want the burlap. And/or he did not prefer the burlap too . Some would say : he has low mtoviation to possess , but I see a little more to this. I would try . at least try to get him to chase and bite. I can't say 100% until I personally worked this dog. However , I have seen countless times , dogs not chase for the bite , for one reason or another. But that did not kean they did not want to pursue . That did not mean as I have seen many times that the dog had no so called ' Prey Drive'. Being uncomfortable is enough reason for a dog not to chase e.g environent, , seeing the features of a helper , or they have their own style and will chase and strike out for the bite on their terms - to name but three examples. What I can rightly state to you nthat it is better to start the dog off in protection exercises by having the dog chase and bite . Or if one has to pressure the dog one has to really really keep in mind , observe the emotinal state of that dog , when the dog gets that bite.

Last comment- I do not know the people that are going to help you , BTW two of the bigges mistakes I have seen in 30+ years of people working the dog : trying to make the dog what it is not and also doing to much to fast ! So again teach basic skills to the dog first and allow the dog to be comfortable in his performing before anything else. Do not ,do not ,in the very very beginning while doing protection exercises with this dog do ANY OBEDIENCE right before or during the session. Let the dog learn to have fun and hard and grip. Keep teaching basic OB just mthat , in an OB session .. for the time being IMOp . There will be the time to teach the out and also OB within the protection soon enough .


by Sunsilver on 06 June 2019 - 21:06

Pushing a dog into defense too soon can ruin it. Your dog is still young. You need to build his confidence. Allowing him to 'win' (make the bite, and possess the pillow/sleeve) builds confidence.

Holding him back and teasing him before allowing the bite builds frustration and drive. A good decoy will know just how long to tease the dog before giving him the bite, so he doesn't lose interest.

Things you want to avoid at this stage: having the decoy really pressure the dog by yelling or trying to intimidate it by towering over it, moving towards it in a threatening way. Get the dog used to the stick GRADUALLY. NO stick hits right now. Usually, when the dog is first started on the sleeve, the decoy raises the stick hand to signal the dog it's time to bite, then strokes the dog's body with the stick while it's on the sleeve. This teaches the dog it's nothing to be afraid of.    


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