REDIRECTED AGGRESSION - Page 2

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by duke1965 on 15 January 2018 - 22:01

think rewards or corrections wont work,

giving a ball feeds the drive,will give opposite of what you want

 correction will cause fight/agression,

just  block the dog and make him understand there is nothing to win with this behaviour,as soon as drive has leaked continue to work as if nothing happened,

this will not make the problem go away, but will allow you to have healthy relationship as long as you keep focussedWink Smile

by Centurian on 15 January 2018 - 22:01

So ..... .
I want the OP to really think about this , and the posts / commentary on this thread. I try to keep this comment for evdry level of experienced person from beginner to expert can understand.


Where ever lies a situation .. we should think in terms of the origin of the behavior . Three origins are possible [ assuming there is is not a brain malady in the dog ] and they are : this behavior is genetic in origin , this behavior is environmental / learned in origin , or this behavior's origin is a combination of learning/environment and genetics.

Many posts have stated the dog learned this or didn't learn that . So what ..... a dog that cannot direct it's aggression is a dangerous dog . That simple This is a dog that however you want to slice it , either does not , or IMOp cannot exhibit ' impulse control '. IMOp there is a large genetic contribution to this . This is a manageable situation. So , who in the world , who in their right mind would want a dog like this ? Sometimes you experienced people loose the tree in the forest. Because You experienced people and I ** can handle a dog like this , by no means is this a GOOD canine to have [ that is why someone wants to get rid of it ] . What one does in essence makes their problem [ dog ] someone else's problem if they are foolish enough to take the dog.

Really some of you folks , discussing about channeling drive and this and that . This is a dangerous dog , who cannot have control over it's behavior. That means .. the person that owns this dog... will 24/7 have to always see that it has complete control over this dog , but I don't mean the complete control over a dog as in having a companion .

IMOp ., may advice and if it were the first post would have simply , succinctly stated : get as far way from owning that dog as you can possibly can . The person that made the most complete logistical comments on this thread is Valk and I suggest the OP re read his comments. Yes , in plain English .. the only good use for this dog as we say in the 'ol USA , is being a junk yard dog [ if you have the need for tat and thee are some needs for junk yard dogs too ]. That is how the OP , IMOp should deal with this dog with all honesty , good intentions and kindness of heart stated.


by ValK on 15 January 2018 - 22:01

duke 1965
"correction" has several definitions - not exclusively "punishment" ;)

by duke1965 on 16 January 2018 - 06:01

centurion, uncontrolled agression and drive overload are two very different things,

and there are people in the world that look for something else than a companion/labrador type dog, and look at malinois and desire higher drive levels, than this dog is a product of that desire

many experienced LE handlers dont have a problem with such dog.

by KAL on 16 January 2018 - 12:01

Duke, can you explain what you mean by 'block the dog'?

by Centurian on 16 January 2018 - 13:01

Drive overload ... Duke please define that expression .. How do you quantify what is normal and abnormal for the type and amount of what you term ' drive overload '.

For a time ... I have been writing that , and I will confine this statement to the GSD for conversation sake [ although I believe that it also applies to all canines ] . There is a NORMAL Qualitative Aggression in a GSD as well as a NORMAL Quantitative Aggression in the GSD ! One can use soft words like ' overload' but that word is so non specific , poorly descriptive , that to me , this is not so funny to be used in talking about aggression.

'Overload' ... this comment is  not directed at Duke.. But  to many professionals , so called exceptionally experienced people :   you do not in the least understand Aggression as it pertains to the GSD if you think dogs get overloaded aggression. Aggression is a behavioral trait  . You will not recognize , nor do many care to recognize that there is a Normal and an Abnormal Qualitative and Quantitative Aggression , which has it roots in the breeding trasits and the genetics of the dog. Now I am not talking about a well bred , sound GS , that has been put through the ringer and turns out to be a menace- that is different scenario altogether . The difference is that one has to know , not understand but know , from where the sggression originates. And from here on in this post is in regards to aggression that is abnormal from a genetic origin. The scenario of a human  crating a dog with unaceptable aggrssion ,  is about a knucklehead human and not a knucklehead dog.

When a GS does redirect aggression . ok I will say that we can consider the dog stressed , that it redirects it's energy , but to me this is impulsively done , this is triggered with the dog not in control of itself. It's reactive  behavior , and autonomic . And many times someone thinks they are going to control this .  The inexperienced handler will often be to late to respond to this aggression. The aggression happens even before an expereinced  person can respond. Quite often this redirected aggression is an autonomic reflex action . Overload Aggression IMOp ,  is code for : Abnormal , Unsound Aggression , abnormal unsound dog ! For the novice : the GS is a pensive , problem solving , discerning caninthat has the ability to channel it's drives appropriately through impulse control .  This ability entails  sound mentality and sound genetics.  There is no place for accepting or justifying this redirected aggression to a human in this breed ..I will add . Many professionals do not understand what sound mentality is ... they  often choose to ignore sound mentality and genetics or simply choose not to acknowledge the prescense or abscense of it. 

BTW .. for the record I am not opposed in the least,  to Aggression that as I describe is very very high [ normally], or a GS that is very very hard , in normality . I have had those GSD in my life , I've worked them with other people that had them too. . Aggression in itself is not the issue ,  ' abnormality in aggression '  is the issue. So hard the biteo f these GS  were ,  that the suite needed to be 6 inches thick and you could hit the dog over the head with a chair and it would endure the combat .

So , some of the folks that are still going to debate this ' abnormal aggression' , with humility I state to you : you do not understand animals, let alone a dog . Consider a father that has a son that is a brute who constantly mouths off to the father. This son is a tough dude , perhaps held in his place because his dad is Golden Glove boxing Champ. Is this situation acceptable: a son who in a split second when triggered lashes out and hits his  father ? Is this a normal way to have a son ? Consider the same type of son that when in public becomes stressed out , or get's rubbed the wrong way by someone , gets triggered ,  turns and beats the daylight out of that some one  . Or consider  a son when agitated just  by someone for looking the wrong way cracks that person on the jaw. Tell me ,are these sons 'normal' for being triggered so easily , normal in personality ? { I hope you all don't }.  Is this normal behavior that should be tolerated even though some people in life are skilled and experienced enough to deal with these people and handle these personality types ? IMOP , this is not normal and if we don't accept this , take this from a human then , why in the world would someone ever consider an animal like this to interact with . What isthere to prove or to accomplish with these dogs when you can take a well bred GS , with great mentality and make something of it ? .[ BTW we are animals too. ]. Just why under the sun would any even keeled person in the dog world even think :  I can channel this dog and work him , all will be well ?  In simple English , these sons need a psychiatrist and these dogs need more than someone who counsels  and handles them too.

Again , this post is not directed at any of the previous posters ! This is directed at the thousands [ and read how many thousand of hits threads/topics haveon the PDB ] of people who are not professionals or don't have to  much experience ,    to think about . Disagree if you will , do different as you will . But I take aggression in an animal [ and people] very very very seriously .  This redirected aggression is not to be taken lightly. And if some readers want to be a hero with these kinds of  GSs .... good luck ...
 


by beetree on 16 January 2018 - 14:01

😂 LOL

by ValK on 16 January 2018 - 16:01

some people seems has single purpose, to show/prove their own "coolness", regardless have someone asked them for or not :)
for me more perplex question, how that dog got in and had passed an over a year of prep. process with such a flaw to not being noticed by anyone? after all it's a government agency and supposedly should employ professional folks.

by duke1965 on 16 January 2018 - 19:01

centurian,pretty simple, dogs bite from preydrive or agression, 

randomly agressive dogs that bite handler etc are not desirable in my book as well, agree with you there, I do like agression but it need to be focussed or controlled/controlable agression

however some dogs are extremely high on prey and possesiveness, and can, when taken of the bite, snap around, this is drive(overload), no agression, the dog cant help himself, therefore corrections will not work,also it is known fact that dogs learn and process information best when in low drive

this is not an issue you can unteach

 

correcting a dog hard on this point can trigger agression however, but that is a seperate response from the dog, triggered by the correction and has nothing to do with the bite or out  prior to that

Valk, with blocking the dog I mean taking the dog from the bite with both hands on the collar(no loose collar but tight flat and strong collar), turned forward with your knuckles behind the dogs ears, when you take them of the bite

like that you block the undesired reaction without triggering anything else(correction or showing ball will), and if it is a drive overload issue, the dog will focus on the decoy again in matter of seconds, this way the issue stays, but it is under control at all times, again, this needs to be done by experienced people, not pet owners

to answer your last question, drives can get stronger once dog matures and bad handling can increase a problem that was not so bad to begin with, like I said earlier, I got multiple dogs from czech and german police with that problem that got out of control after basic training and when on the street already

 

yogidog

by yogidog on 16 January 2018 - 19:01

A dog needs to be taught rules and boundaries at a young age and they must be very clear. and yes in a low drive. Bad training bad timing. Before serious bite work dogs need to understand the rules this is learned when playing as a pup and can be taught very quickly. Iv seen people with dogs with alot of prey drive over load their dogs when not needed as result the get bit out of frustration people need to learn to read their dog and teach when teaching us needed but also brake a habit when needed this has to be done when u are teaching the pup control and respect and focus


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