Importance of titling your own Showline dog and then campaigning in shows - Page 5

Thank you Abby Normal for your kind words..... to be fair, I am sure that there are many people who share the same or similar bond with their dogs and for whom the dog will do good work if bidden to do so.

The comments of vonIsengard, Blitzen and others on this thread are quite valid.....however it is a pitfall to imply that showline dogs are in someway "more reality" oriented while working line dogs are more "game oriented". To say this does a serious disservice to all dogs regardless of of show or work categories.

A dog that understands a threat and is not dissuaded by any distraction from its committment to engage a threat is a dog that possesses strong courage and resistance to stress. When such a dog is willing to place this characteristic under the biddable command & control of a handler then this dog can be considered as a strong working dog or a dog with strong working ability. The parameters under which such behavior manifests is different for different dogs. But when it exists then that is a bond between handler and canine.

Now too often I have come across situations wherein a dogs unwillingness to engage is explained on the basis of the "unreality" of the threat.... the implied statement is that "my dog would tear him apart if it was a real axe murderer"... "he knows its a game". Maybe so.... but in that case I look at the picture that the dog is presenting.... if the dog is truly unimpressed by the obvious unreality of the threat then I should see a dog that stands calm, silent and strong before a hopping and threatening helper,....... not engaging or moving in any way but not giving any ground either....

Instead more often than not I see a dog that is bouncing at the end of a leash, barking in a whiny, supplicant manner, with a body language that indicates ambivalence and hesitancy.... neither retreating with conviction nor engaging with committment. That to me does not represent a dog that has confidently assessed the falsity of the the helpers posture and decided to hold back...... it indicates a dog that is weak and indecisive.

Truly real dogs are difficult dogs to work with but the difficulty does not stem from indecisiveness.... rather from a surplus of confidence.

Hi Ravi,

Your statement about the way dogs respond to an "unreal threat" reminded me of something the evaluator told the entries at a GSDCA temperament test. When she walked us  through the exercises, she made it a point to stress that, when confronted with the "threatening stranger",  the Sch titled dogs may not react  to his attempts to elicit a response. Sure enough, that was true. The 2 Sch dogs entered stood still next to the handlers watching the stranger's antics but making no attempt to engage. Every other dog, some GSD's, a few other breeds, lunged and barked.

I thought she was a pretty smart evaluator given that her dogs are AKC showlines and, to the best of my  knowledge, she has never trained in protection. Had she not made that statement I would have thought that those Sch dogs were not giving a good response.

Hope you are well.

I would like o add, that while I agree that too many people try to rush training and titling, just because someone gets a BH or SchI at a young age does NOT necessarily mean the dog was not ready or the training was not good. I just got 3 BHs on3 very different dogs last month. One was 3yrs old, one was 2yrs old, and one was 15 months old. The 2 younger ones were my own breeding, and I started very early with foundation training. It was the right time for all 3 dogs. They were all ready, and all passed. No bad experiences for anyone. :-) Theresa

"Truly real dogs are difficult dogs to work with but the difficulty does not stem from indecisiveness.... rather from a surplus of confidence."





Right!

I do not mean to imply that it must be one or the other: working or show, prey or defense. A good dog of any line benefits from having a correct balance of both, but show lines particularly so.

Ravi, absolutely agree, I am sure that there are many, many others working their own dogs in whatever sport/work that they do who also achieve this beautiful deep connection with their dog, the video of you and Juneau just illustrates it to perfection.

Instead more often than not I see a dog that is bouncing at the end of a leash, barking in a whiny, supplicant manner, with a body language that indicates ambivalence and hesitancy.... neither retreating with conviction nor engaging with committment. That to me does not represent a dog that has confidently assessed the falsity of the the helpers posture and decided to hold back...... it indicates a dog that is weak and indecisive.

Watching the protection phase in the Sieger show, I saw many dogs that reacted in exactly the manner you describe. I wonder if this is an inherent 'lack' of ability/nerve in those dogs, or whether it is a product of training, especially where the dog has been trained by some outside ‘professional’ and/or has been rushed into titling for whatever reason? Is this doing SL in general a disservice in how their ‘working ability’ is perceived?

Shirley, great work with Ikon, and good luck with your new puppy - how very exciting. Is it SL litter or SL X WL?

I understood exactly what you intended in your original post vonIsengard and I agree with it.... I just wanted to clarify it a little bit for the average reader who I felt may intrepret it in a way that is not helpful....

This thread is complementary to the other thread on the strengths and weaknesses of showlines.... overall there is not much that I could say that could improve on the contributions that you, blitzen, abby and others are posting.....

Good posts, Great Thread

I did not mean to imply that every dog that has trialed at a young age is wrong, I was just agreeing that sometimes just because your dog is at the minimum age required, doesn't mean you have to try right then.  Some dogs are ready, and some dogs are not. The owner is the only one who knows for sure.  I just hate to see novice handlers pressured into trying and then fail.

 

I really enjoyed this thread, and nice to see it not go off on an anti-showline tangent, just good constructive criticism and a lot of food for thought!